The English thread

[Roger]

If the Aussie's can have one, then so can we! :14:

One thing I have noticed is that it you can be Scottish, Welsh, or Irish in official documents, but the option to be English isn't there. We have to say we are British. Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales all have their own governing bodies for State laws, but in England we are ruled by the British Government only. It seems just because they are based in England that they think we wouldn't notice.

I am not knocking Britishness, as I am happy to be British. But I would like to see my English roots and culture as accepted as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland's are.

How come I was born a British subject and I'm now a British citizen? I would have liked to have been asked about that one.

I am an English, British, European, World citizen!

So what is it to be English?

What is our identity, and how do others see us?

[riott007]

technically, I feel that I qualify as English since I lived over there for so long. Well, my heart feels English anyway.

[Roger]

technically, I feel that I qualify as English since I lived over there for so long. Well, my heart feels English anyway.
That's good enough for me! :)

How long were you here for?

[asa.oleary123]

Yeah England!

We are adequate at all sports, most notably of which is Football, in which we revel in averageness and general disappointment.

We also have very dull weather, rain is the norm in Britain, or its overcast, they both suck as badly.

Other things Britain has is:
-An incompetent Prime Minister (I'm a Tory ;), don't hurt me)
-A weakened and crumbling economy
-Rising Unemployment
-Jeremy Kyle

So yeah, I'm Engish and proud!

Go England!

[Killian]

(Dubs Riott Honorary English).

What I demand to know is, if Wales get St David's day off as a Bank Holiday, Scotland get St Andrew's day and the Irish get St Paddy's, why the hell don't we get St George's?

Ok, I know St George was actually Palestinian and not English, but he's our patron saint in any event, so I demands my extra day off!

Still, I think that's all part and parcel of this wierd obession with not looking too Nationalist (given all the bad press the tabloids spurt out about "foreigners taking all our jobs!" etc), which means that the establishment shys away from anything which promotes Englishness (for fear of the inevitable PC backlash).

Of course, the second the footy, rugger or cricket teams start doing well, the "National Pride" thing starts... and disappears just as fast once we get hammered ;)

Still, I think (although it's addressed at Britain in general), I think Bill Bailey sums it up best in this:-

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-er4vRJoQCI

Of course, the whole "British Citizen" thing is no doubt down to the national identity thing and not the country identity... or something... I dunno :)

[Fospherous]

I'm English!

We owned nearly all of the world!
We have a OK Prime-minister (I'm a Labour supporter)
Our Bankers give away money without care hence the crisis...Damn them!!!
We started Football/Soccer
and were Free!...sort of...

God Bless Endland! :40:

[Killian]

You're thinking of the British Empire... run by the English, fought for by the Irish and Scots and built by the Irish and Scots...

The English government has a lot to answer for during the days of "Empah, by jove"...which is why it's surprising we get on pretty well with most of the rest of the world these days, to be quite frank... apart from the French... but then, we have been at war with them more than any other two countries have ever been at war with each other in the history of the world, so that's hardly surprising... :)

[Orky]

My step-father is English and I plan on moving there when I'm 18. Do I get some kind of a qualification for that? :D.

- Orky

[Uber]

actually, we aussies don't give a rats arse about the "aussie thread". It was done as a joke. And fools fell for it. Feel free to move in... we have no use for it.

[EthanRunt]

Maybe if people do something bad on this thread we can ship 'em over to that one?

[riott007]

Thanks for making me an honorary english person! I was over there for 10 years.

I do think those welsh people suck.

[Fospherous]

Let's celebrate Riott's english status by eating some Pig's heart and beans with butter on toast! :p

Proper English Grub!!! :D

[Roger]

actually, we aussies don't give a rats arse about the "aussie thread". It was done as a joke.
I knew that, but I'll plagiarise anything! :laugh:

[Kit06]

What it is to be English...

Indian Takeaway food.
American Television shows.
German Cars.
Irish Pubs.

[MarvellousGuppi]

What it is to be English...

ummmm, I forgot, y'all

mGm

[riott007]

TF- I have never seen anybody eat pigs hearts while I was over there...do you live in the ghetto?

[wackyal3000]

One thing I have noticed is that it you can be Scottish, Welsh, or Irish in official documents, but the option to be English isn't there. We have to say we are British. Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales all have their own governing bodies for State laws, but in England we are ruled by the British Government only. It seems just because they are based in England that they think we wouldn't notice.


A very interesting question Roger. For me its still partly Political correctness. It is a view (no necessarily true) that it is OK for the countries that are part of the Union essentially because we conquered them to have independent pride. You can celebrate Scotland's triumph over the barbarous English at Bannockburn in 1314 but not every Enlgish child is taught about Brunanburh (937), there is no argument that can be won with "Ah but remember Culloden!"

I agree with you Roger, there needs to be more of an English identity and English school children need to know more about their History (but that needs to be balanced, ie. victory at Culloden but also the barbaric suppression of the highland tribes).

[Fospherous]

Riott - Didn't you notice by my voice on TMOA Radio?...I am from da ghetto...blah...blah!

We kill to survive!...Muhahahaha!...anyway, do you want that pig heart?...last chance!

[captainstrider]

I think the problem is that saying you are English is too general.
English people come from England. But English also refers to the language spoken which has become quite widespread.

British of course is still general as it refers to british isles, which also covers Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland. But they have an alternative (Scottish, Welsh, Irish), So for us British is the next option open for us other than English. Or at least I think thats how government sees it, hence we are on official documents, British.

Anyhow I refer to myself as English.

What is it to be English?
- Born and Raised in England
- Our History
- Fish and Chips
- Gentlemen in Bowler hats with umbrellas and drinking tea (Oh thats more a stereotype)

Apart from the above, we seem to have lost parts of our identity, we're more a hybrid of identities (I think Kit just about covered it :laugh:).

However I am English, hailing from England and proud of it.
Strider Out!

[macwemyss]

Well I am Scottish, as you can see, and in all honesty I have only ever heard the term British used by British people, and in places like France, Spain, etc, we are all simply referred to as English. I don't think this British idea is ever really going to catch on outside the UK.

The thing is, I think it has gone to a whole new extreme over here and in schools the sense of national identity has been totally scrapped. When I was in primary school, we were taught God Save the Queen repeatedly for 3 years and yet never learned our own national anthem at all. My friend, who goes to a school in England, also told me they once had a Scottish Day, where they wore kilts and learned about haggis, etc. It may just be me, but I find that pretty ridiculous. Why should they have to learn about our historic culture in their compulsory learning when most of our schools don't even do that?

I agree with most of your points Roger about us being TOO British. However, I wouldn't say we are really 'accepted' as Scottish at all, it's only when it suits the English press (no offence to you guys of course). I'll give you an example: Recently in football in the Uefa Cup and Champions League finals the Champions League final was described repeatedly as an 'all-English' final, which it was, but it seems unfair that Rangers got to the Uefa Cup final and were constantly referred to as a 'British' team.

All in all, I don't mind being British, it's just I prefer being Scottish.

Oh yeah, I think Killian mentioned St Andrews Day was a national holiday. It isn't. ;)

Macwemyss:)

[EthanRunt]

And I prefer you being Scottish too, stay over that wall dagnabbit!

[Roger]

I believe our national identities are important from a cultural perspective in particular. Having travelled a little and marrying an American (now British) citizen, I understand what English culture is, well much more than I used to anyway.

I am fairly familiar with Welsh culture through my Nan who is Welsh and who I am very close to.

My experience of Scottish and in particular, Northern Irish culture is far more limited.

I didn't know until 15 or so years ago that the cross of St George was actually the English flag. I used to believe it was the symbol from Crusaders Shields.

Some English things I don't like:

Football (soccer); Although I will watch it if England do well in a major tournament. So that is not often then, lol.

Heart; In fact I only know one person who likes it. Two if Tom really likes it.

The two faced attitude of many Southerners; I am a Southerner, so unfortunately have experienced a lot of it.

Bureaucracy: Trust me when I say that we are covered in red tape.

Wannabe gangstas: I have spent time with gangs in the USA. Over here they just don't get it. Rule number 1: RESPECT YOUR FAMILY!

The grammar:

Short days in the winter. Dark at 3.30pm :(


Some things I like about England:

The weather; I do live in Eastbourne and it is pretty good here. ;)

Cricket; The sound of leather on willow, and I am not referring to the other English tradition of BDSM. Never figured out what the BD stood for, and wasn't really interested in finding out.

Music; We have had some great music over the years.

The Seaside; Everywhere in England is not too far from the sea. :)

The shopping; Great if you love bargain hunting. I actually love shopping, except for shoe shopping which I detest. I have very wide feet. :(

The language:

Long days in the summer. Dark at 10.30 pm :)

[Norrie]

Britain, England, Scotland – yadda yadda.

Warning: long ramble ahead.

The words British and English have been pretty much synonymous since the Act of the Union in 1707. Truth be told; the idea was that the separate countries would disappear and just be Great Britain (Great relating to size, strictly "Greater Britain").
However, the Scottish parliament at the time was full of lawyers and academics, so Scotland retained distinct law and education rights (job protection from politicians, quelle surprise).

The definitive Oxford History is still called "The History of England", when all 17 volumes refer to The British Isles.

I suspect "Englishness" is harder to pin down due to its enormous diversity: Normans, Saxons, Danes, Dutch, Angles, and so on. That the language has the largest vocabulary of any is testament to that.

The British Empire was capitalism at its worst: founded squarely (or should that be trianglely?) on piracy, slavery, and drugs.

Lastly, nearly all internal conflicts (including the civil war and the Jacobite nonsense) were caused by religious, not nationalistic, issues.

An interesting, and very funny, take on this is:

An Utterly Impartial History of Britain: (or 2000 Years of Upper Class Idiots in Charge) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Utterly-Impartial-History-Britain-Idiots/dp/0552773964/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231164995&sr=1-1) by John O'Farrell.

[Roger]

An interesting looking book there Norrie!

As for Englishness, you do make some very good and valid points. My own family name of Burlong has been traced back to 1066. We came over with old Bill, we liked it, so we stayed. :001_tt2:

But over the years our Norman purity has been mixed with many other nationalities, both known and unknown. But in more recent times Welsh descended from Irish is the most recent new blood with my Nan.

As for the Empire being based on capitalist motives. Totally!

As with all capitalism, if it ignores the negative impact that it can have on people's lives, it can become a terrible beast.

Thank God we no longer invade countries under false pretexts just so we can secure their resources! :whistling:

[thebiz]

Was meandering about reading about Alan Moore when I stumbled upon this wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:English_vegetarians)and thought, "Gee whiz! This link should go in the English Thread."

Apparently they have tracked down all of the English Vegetarians. Now they can round them up and lock them away. It is a strange wikipedia entry...no?

[Norrie]

I have nothing against vegetarians (English or otherwise).

I believe they are all idiots who will die unhappily, whatever their nationality, race, or creed.

Does the term Omnivore mean nothing to those fools?

[sisch]

After reading this thread, I just have to ask:
has anyone of you british, english or scottish people read this book?

Kate Fox - Watching the English (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Watching-English-Hidden-Rules-Behaviour/dp/0340818867/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231189324&sr=1-1)

I found it very interesting, especially because I travelled around Britain extensively a few years ago... I would be interested to hear if you agree with the observations Kate Fox has made!

In a way, I envy you british, american - or come to think of it, a lot of nationalities - about your ability to identify with a nationality, of being proud of your country, and having a sense of belonging. I don't have that, and believe that the ability to feel like this has been driven out of the germans after WWII....

For instance, there's no sense of pride when I tell someone: "I'm german". I even think we as a nation lack the ability to be proud of our home, or look at our quirks and laugh about them. We seem forever to be concentrating on our bad points. I know I do. At best, I feel europian.

[wackyal3000]

Will all English vegetarians please stand up.

*Wackyal stands up*

Oh and I don't appear to be on the list, big surprise there

[Norrie]

In a way, I envy you british, american - or come to think of it, a lot of nationalities - about your ability to identify with a nationality, of being proud of your country, and having a sense of belonging. I don't have that, and believe that the ability to feel like this has been driven out of the germans after WWII....

For instance, there's no sense of pride when I tell someone: "I'm german". I even think we as a nation lack the ability to be proud of our home, or look at our quirks and laugh about them. We seem forever to be concentrating on our bad points. I know I do. At best, I feel europian.

Ah, Sisch how I do both empathise and sympathise.

Unfortunately history is written by the winners. It's been this way since Catholic monks wrote European history (hence the dark ages, when Arabic scholars were streets ahead).

Ford didn't actually say "History teaches us nothing", but he might as well have done.

Ask a "normal, right thinking, Brit" about foreigners, and they will react as they are told. (normally by the fecking Daily Mail) Mindless, cretinous, morons. The lot of them.

It's not often I agree with Samuel Johnson, but I like this:

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

[michael_b6]

You guys have cool sounding accents that I can barely understand at times.

[riott007]

Hey Sisch, my relatives are from Poland. Enough said. (The rest are from Sweden)
One line we can trace back to John Adams & John Quincy Adams. Those were the only two rockstars I know of.

[Uber]

Well, Mrs Uber is from a village south west from York. A wee lil village called Welburn. That plus the fact my family is from Cornwall allows me a spot of postingh here and there.

[Roger]

After reading this thread, I just have to ask:
has anyone of you british, english or scottish people read this book?

Kate Fox - Watching the English (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Watching-English-Hidden-Rules-Behaviour/dp/0340818867/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231189324&sr=1-1)

I found it very interesting, especially because I travelled around Britain extensively a few years ago... I would be interested to hear if you agree with the observations Kate Fox has made!

In a way, I envy you british, american - or come to think of it, a lot of nationalities - about your ability to identify with a nationality, of being proud of your country, and having a sense of belonging. I don't have that, and believe that the ability to feel like this has been driven out of the germans after WWII....

For instance, there's no sense of pride when I tell someone: "I'm german". I even think we as a nation lack the ability to be proud of our home, or look at our quirks and laugh about them. We seem forever to be concentrating on our bad points. I know I do. At best, I feel europian.
That is tragic Sisch, and deeply touched me. I can understand why you feel as you do, but I think after more than 60 years it is time to move forward.

I personaly feel a degree of guilt for things that Britain has done in it's past, especially during the Empire. But knowing those things are wrong doesn't mean that we have to agree with them.

I think Germany has a lot to be proud of since the war. Including engineering which is some of the best in the world. Excellent car manufacturing and design. But I personally think the best thing that Germany has done is it's contribution to establishing and contributing to the European community.

Maybe something my grandfather once said to me may be of some small comfort.

He fought in the war in North Africa and Italy. He told me that he respected the German soldiers. When I asked why he explained. "The ordinary German soldier was just the same as us, he was just doing his job!"

He talked about having a truce one Christmas where the British and German soldiers swapped rations, played football and talked with each other. He said that he learnt something that day. That was that the British soldiers hated the Nazis. But not as much as the German soldiers did. He finished his tale with these words, "Germans and Nazis are very different things, never mistake them as being the same thing!"

He also talked of atrocities that he witnessed at the hands of British soldiers which I feel are too extreme to mention here. In war no one is completely innocent.

So Sisch, I hope you can feel a little more comfortable about Germany. It is a wonderful country, love it for what it is now! :thumbup:

[thebiz]

National identity is a fascinating subject that spans beyond winners and losers (look at Japan) to a very complex set of subjects decided upon by whatever historians are in power (Norries point I believe) and used to take generations to change, though my opinion is that the internet and globalism is speeding up changes in how the younger generation view national identities. Whew, that was a long winded sentence if ever there was one.

Anywho, lucky for Sisch, Roger has now fixed the poor German national identity and we can move on to The Athiest Bus Campaign in Britian (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/world/europe/07london.html?_r=1&hp). Involves some great quotes (We dont do God) and some people who miss the point so obviously ("Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I don’t like it in my face"). Not positive the Times articles can be read by nonsubscribers but if it can its an interesting read...

[JazzX]

National identity is a fascinating subject that spans beyond winners and losers (look at Japan) to a very complex set of subjects decided upon by whatever historians are in power (Norries point I believe) and used to take generations to change, though my opinion is that the internet and globalism is speeding up changes in how the younger generation view national identities. Whew, that was a long winded sentence if ever there was one.

Anywho, lucky for Sisch, Roger has now fixed the poor German national identity and we can move on to The Athiest Bus Campaign in Britian (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/world/europe/07london.html?_r=1&hp). Involves some great quotes (We dont do God) and some people who miss the point so obviously ("Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I don’t like it in my face"). Not positive the Times articles can be read by nonsubscribers but if it can its an interesting read...

Hehe - I'm with Dawkins, they should have lost the "probably". How anyone can see the message as threatening in any way is beyond me.

I think patriotism is a form of religion - we blindly place ourselves in a particular in-group and focus on the positive things other members of the group have achieved.

eg. I'm proud to be Scottish because Alexander Fleming invented Penicillin, Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone, John Logie Baird invented the TV, Robert Burns invented Burns Night and Hogmanay, Sean Connery invented James Bond etc.

But it's like identifying with a footballer who has scored a goal. We're not on the pitch doing the business but we say things like "we really stuffed them today" - no "we"
didn't, the guys on the park did (and some of them aren't even really Scottish).

Like supporting a football team, patriotism is great fun! Whether people choose to spend their Sunday in church or on the terraces, the goal is the same; to gain a sense of belonging in numbers. Patriotism works in much the same way. It is a need for unity in numbers which is an obvious part of our evolution as social and territorial creatures.

... and yet, I know it's irrational, but I will continue to cheer for Scotland as they (or should I say "we") are gallantly defeated 2-1 in the last minute time and again. In a masochistic way I like the feeling, it's built into me through millions of years of evolution and countless failed attempts to qualify for major tournaments (or being narrowly knocked out in round 1 when "we" do)!

[Roger]

Now patriotism is an interesting thing indeed. For myself I have no problem patriotism as long as it is not jingoistic.

I personally feel strongly patriotic about English culture, but far less so when it comes to military or political issues. Although I do have fairly strong political opinions, which often differ from that of the Government (regardless of party).

I am proud of many things that are English, British, European, Humankind. I am also ashamed of many things too.

I think patriotism is a good thing, as long as it doesn't take away from another nation (banter excluded. Especially with the Aussies over cricket!). But it is a bad thing when Jingoism creeps in and the attitude is "if you are not one of us, then you are a lower class of being!"

[Killian]

"if you are not one of us, then you are a lower class of being!"

i.e. A Sun Reader...

[Uber]

Cricket? Aussie, aussie, aussie; oi, oi, oi!

[Norrie]

National identity is a fascinating subject that spans beyond winners and losers (look at Japan) to a very complex set of subjects decided upon by whatever historians are in power (Norries point I believe) and used to take generations to change, though my opinion is that the internet and globalism is speeding up changes in how the younger generation view national identities. Whew, that was a long winded sentence if ever there was one.

Anywho, lucky for Sisch, Roger has now fixed the poor German national identity and we can move on to The Athiest Bus Campaign in Britian (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/world/europe/07london.html?_r=1&hp). Involves some great quotes (We dont do God) and some people who miss the point so obviously ("Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I don’t like it in my face"). Not positive the Times articles can be read by nonsubscribers but if it can its an interesting read...

And, being British, we revolt in the only way left to us!

The Advertising Standards Thingy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7818980.stm

Now that's how we revolt!

[Killian]

How British can you get...

"We will complain to an official body and get them to decide what the situation is... then will come the inevitable grumbling that the decision wasn't "tough enough", "too tough" or "what's the question?" from the Sun readers...

[Norrie]

How British can you get...

"We will complain to an official body and get them to decide what the situation is... then will come the inevitable grumbling that the decision wasn't "tough enough", "too tough" or "what's the question?" from the Sun readers...

You forgot: "It's all the immigrants fault" from the Daily Mail!

[Killian]

Damn; I left my jingoistic head in my other pants...

[Uber]

You left your jingling head in your other pants?:54:

[MarvellousGuppi]

I think this says it all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh-wEXvdW8

mGm