Moviestorm v The Movies

[JazzX]

Over the weekend I have been taking a look at the latest version of Moviestorm 1.1.3

I can see a number of things that are better than The Movies - and a bunch of things that aren't.

Here's my comparison:

Moviestorm has no animal scenes - so your basic Western is out of the window. No horse riding - not even any horses!

Moviestorm allows you to place your actors anywhere you want and get them to move anywhere you want (unless it's up or down a flight of stairs - all movements must take place on flat terrain).

I'm not sure - but rain isn't even included in Moviestorm (although one of the addon packs allegedly has a snowdrift prop).

All Moviestorm characters are 6 feet tall (or 5 ' 9 " for females) - as far as hairstyles, it doesn't come anywhere near The Movies/Starmaker for variety!

Moviestorm does have an easy-to-use way of constructing sets - similar to The Sims. Without mods, The Movies only allows you to use its stock sets and the locked props that go with them.

Although emotions can be called upon when demanded (unlike The Movies) the quality of extreme emotion animations doesn't compare. For instance, a film like qtigger's "Pressure", where one character is constantly - and scarely - in the face of another one, wouldn't work if remade with Moviestorm. There seems to be no extremes of emotion included. The sliders seem to go from "not that emotional" to "mildly emotional" at 100%. Moviestorm would be incapable of convincingly showing a person screaming, for example.

... The Movies is very weak on subtle gestures, which Moviestorm excels at.

Moviestorm's selection of costumes is pitiful compared to The Movies. Even after multiple expansion packs are installed. But .. at least the colour of some costumes can be altered to suit, unlike in The Movies.

"Freecam" in Moviestorm is much easier than in The Movies once the controls are learned.

Mods for Moviestorm are much more tightly controlled than for The Movies. Given the way they make their money (free until you buy the expansions) this is understandable, but still very restrictive. (all mods can only be installed if they have a .addon suffix).

In conclusion, Moviestorm works for certain kinds of film - introspective character studies, maybe music videos.

But to allow for great action works such as "Xtreme Taxi" (no chance!) or even the most basic fantasy and Western films where horses are involved, it is nowhere near it yet.

One thing it has in its favour is a dedicated team of programmers who will keep updating the software and expansion packs. That's something The Movies can't boast.

For now, I still believe The Movies wins; but if Moviestorm keeps improving as it has been doing, then that's likely to change.

[EthanRunt]

I've tried Moviestorm, it's slow, sluggish and seems to crash a lot lately, and you can't do as much as I hoped.

[thebiz]

I look forward to playing about with it soon. The sketchup importer looks promising and I have seen something about rain effects on the MS development blog. The added benefit of having an active development team is a big plus (as is that lovely entry price). Fun fun.

[rage]

had a look at moviestorm, have to say i wasnt that impressed. iclone however, is for me a perfect tool for moviemaking. check it out, its well worth a peek!

[asa.oleary123]

I personally didn't like Moviestorm, until it improves \I'm sticking with 'The Movies'

The way they walk, the weird gesture thingy, too complicated for a humble lad like me.

[sisch]

Moviestorm gets constantly updated - if you follow the dev blogs, you'll read that we will have three dimensions, walking up stairs and rain, fireworks and explosion effects soon.

Also, the community has been asked for suggestion of new hairstyles - one of the next addons will be all about that.

Yes, characters are limited, costumes are limited, there are no animals as yet - but we do have movable cars now, and I'm sure more is to follow soon.

As for getting appropriate facial expressions - you'll get what you want, even extreme anger. And the subtle gestures are just great. Of course, you'll have to invest time - for a detailed character scene of about 3min, I invest around 10 to 15 hours on expressions.

You'll have to have a rather high end system for MS to work properly - okay, that might be a drawback for some, but for me it's neither sluggish nor does it crash very often.

And as for character height - well, MS has 6 feet for males, 5'9 for females - TM has one height for all, I think?

I'm not a fan of the "This vs. That" - everyone of us has preferences - this community is about bringing us all together and appreciate good movies made with any program - I judge the movie not by the program it's made with, but by how well it is made, and I hope this will some day be the predominant approach.

At the moment, I perceive there to be still some bias against this program or that.... my answer to that is simply - make great movies using the software you feel comfortable with.

[Lizard]

Sadly, I have not had much of an opportunity to give Moviestorm a full test. I tested the software a while ago and just couldn't make sense of it though I hear people say it is much better now.

But I observe many of the same things that Jazz does. The architecture seems as though it is/can be much more than The Movies but is still not rich on features. Things like uneven terrains, rain, wind, fog, etc can add character and mood which in my opinion is a huge disadvantage.

In theory, I love the business model they have in place but not sure how it will play out. The sketchup importer sounds like it goes against the revenue generating concept they have. If the software is free and then they give a tool that deters people from buying the only thing that financially supports it then how does it continue to thrive?

Personally in the end, I myself had to go with iClone. And so far the only real disadvantage has been the cost. Each program will have something that lacks though. Moviestorm is still new and hopefully thebcontent and features will greatly improve.

[thebiz]

In theory, I love the business model they have in place but not sure how it will play out. The sketchup importer sounds like it goes against the revenue generating concept they have. If the software is free and then they give a tool that deters people from buying the only thing that financially supports it then how does it continue to thrive?



This issue has been in my head for a bit as well.

[sisch]

Mhmm... I think they hope it will work out like for the Sims2 - though they have a great modding community which has made loads of content, EA still was able to sell the addons very well.

At the moment, you have to apply for a modders license - the modshop doesn't come with the program per se.

I also believe that at some point, they plan to sell the program in shops, too.

And if you want new animations or something like that - you'll have to buy addons. Of course that might change at some point, but there will always be people who'd rather buy an official addon than download some stuff that might not work?

[kuroken]

Like Sisch, I'm not a huge fan of anything v. anything else discussions, because in the end, it's a combination of personal preference, what makes most sense to you, cost, what you're working on vs. what the software can do right now, and so on - lot of variables, and they're going to be different for each person.

My feeling, often expressed, is that you should use what allows you to make the movie you want to make. I see terrific movies continuing to be made with The Movies. If you question what MovieStorm can do, check out Sisch's studio. For me, it's iClone, and the films I'm seeing others around here make give me hope that my first film won't be too awful.

All three of the current software packages out there have things they do well, and things they do less well. But I believe in the hands of a talented director, with some of the great voice actors we have around here, the musicians, the modders, that an amazing film can be made with any of them.

Is there an "all of the above" choice?:thumbup1:

Ken

[BenTuttle90]

Well, I haven't tried Moviestorm yet (computer cannot connect to the server), I did try that little version of iClone that came with Magix.

Really, I am more interested in the plot and theme of the film itself, not the program it uses.

[thebiz]

I dont care what anyone says. If your not making movies using fingerpuppets and a pinhole camera then your just not making movies.

My way or the highway! This...Not that.


p.s. Just how high end are we talking Sisch?

[JazzX]

I look forward to playing about with it soon. The sketchup importer looks promising and I have seen something about rain effects on the MS development blog. The added benefit of having an active development team is a big plus (as is that lovely entry price). Fun fun.

I was excited about that as well - I even downloaded sketchup and downloaded a massive model of Glasgow Ranger's Ibrox Stadium!

But, then I found that the sketchup tool was only available to "licensed modders" or whatever that means.

As you said, they seem to be playing very cautious when it comes to mods, as "modified" content is where they make their money in their own expansion packs.

I also tried iClone this weekend but my computer hated it, the graphics were all glitched up - it seemed to be too much work anyway for £100, and then it's another £100 for the addons (such as the medieval pack). I think they're taking the piss.

Apart from some tech demos and trailers, I've not seen a single full movie produced using iClone. Maybe someone can point me in the right direction.

[asa.oleary123]

This discussion has inspired me to (for the 3rd time) download moviestorm, i hope to try and finally get to grips with it, and maybe chroma key it with the movies.

EDIT: Computer Crashed whilst downloading, decided to try the iclone trial instead

[JazzX]

This discussion has inspired me to (for the 3rd time) download moviestorm, i hope to try and finally get to grips with it, and maybe chroma key it with the movies.

EDIT: Computer Crashed whilst downloading, decided to try the iclone trial instead

Moviestorm has improved a lot since its beta days and will continue to improve.

If your computer can't handle Moviestorm then it has no chance against iClone.

[asa.oleary123]

I think it's mostly to do with the fact that i dont use internet explorer and moviestorm when installing kept opening windows and stuff in IE, this usually messes up my computer, need to get it fixed. I think she can handle most things, shes quite powerful, strangely enough, not Moviestorm.

Tis not all bad though, will attempt again tomorrow perhaps

[kuroken]

Apart from some tech demos and trailers, I've not seen a single full movie produced using iClone. Maybe someone can point me in the right direction.
I think the funny thing is that, though iClone has been out for 3 years (iClone 1 was released around the same time as The Movies), in terms of making what we, in our snooty way, consider real or full movies, they're still in their infancy.

Why? I don't honestly know. Maybe you watch enough music videos made with a program, you think that's what it's for.

But it's changing - not only with some of "our" filmmakers (yeah, I'm being snooty again) taking the iClone plunge, but there's also been more and more good stuff coming out of the iClone community and fansites as well. I know in talking to filmmakers on the air over the past few months, they're anxious to move iClone filmmaking to the next level, and I think you're going to see some amazing stuff in the next six months.

As for recommendations, just a few:

Capemedia's Shadow Dance (http://www.tmunderground.com/watch/676a129760a3eae30929/The-Sword-Dance-%28Demo-Reel%29) is the movie that convinced me to buy iClone - perhaps a hybrid of music video and film, it's a scene set to music. It showed me what iClone was capable of in the hands of a skilled director.

Raven2Angel's Ghost in the Machine (http://www.tmunderground.com/user/457/videos/public) series - I was following this over at CloneClips, the movie side of the CoolClones portal, and was glad when she started releasing them on TMU as well - but damn her for not allowing ratings and comments, LOL, because I'd really like to be able to tell her how much I'm enjoying her series.

Wolf's Into Shadow, Episode 1 (http://www.tmunderground.com/watch/de3aef2e2432a58c8677/Into-Shadow-Episode-1) - Very nice beginning to what looks like it may be a really cool medieval series.

VectisEthaniel's Stowaways (http://www.tmunderground.com/user/784/videos/public) series - A filmmaker in Singapore, working with some kids in an academy - not perhaps the most polished piece (though I believe they're working on something new), but a solid story and some superb voice acting.

That's just a few suggestions - as I said, I think in the coming months, you're going to see some really good stuff, from these filmmakers and others, as people realize what the software is capable of.

Ken

[Burkey1993]

I think it's mostly to do with the fact that i dont use internet explorer and moviestorm when installing kept opening windows and stuff in IE, this usually messes up my computer, need to get it fixed. I think she can handle most things, shes quite powerful, strangely enough, not Moviestorm.

Tis not all bad though, will attempt again tomorrow perhaps

So your computers female Asa :001_tt2:

I hope to try out Moviestorm properly some time soon. I have had a little play around and I liked many of the features but I found it lacking in some areas. So maybe like Asa, I may try mixing the 2 together.

[Mefune Akira]

Why not use both?

MS is everything TM isn't and vice versa. The BIG difference is that TM is dead as far as advancing and MS is growing strong. I know TM modders are working on animation mods, but Ive seen very little as far as specifics of what that entails.

I was skeptical about the first round of testing MS back in the day, but I downloaded the program two weeks ago and I got to tell ya, my first reaction was bliss and the reason why was....wait for it....AN 'UNDO' BUTTON!! When I saw that, I dove in to find out more. Turns out the program is very user friendly now and they have seriously upped the game in every way. True it has a long way to go, but so much can be done with it now. Ok no rodeos, but with superb lighting options, a great looking set, some detailed expressions, a good score going and some decent acting....oh yeah man.

I will most likely be using both for my films from now on.

[act3scene24]

But, then I found that the sketchup tool was only available to "licensed modders" or whatever that means.

As you said, they seem to be playing very cautious when it comes to mods, as "modified" content is where they make their money in their own expansion packs.

Actually, to get a modder's license at MS, all you have to do is PM and ask a staff member at the forum.

[JazzX]

Why not use both?

MS is everything TM isn't and vice versa. The BIG difference is that TM is dead as far as advancing and MS is growing strong. I know TM modders are working on animation mods, but Ive seen very little as far as specifics of what that entails.

I was skeptical about the first round of testing MS back in the day, but I downloaded the program two weeks ago and I got to tell ya, my first reaction was bliss and the reason why was....wait for it....AN 'UNDO' BUTTON!! When I saw that, I dove in to find out more. Turns out the program is very user friendly now and they have seriously upped the game in every way. True it has a long way to go, but so much can be done with it now. Ok no rodeos, but with superb lighting options, a great looking set, some detailed expressions, a good score going and some decent acting....oh yeah man.

I will most likely be using both for my films from now on.

I agree on the undo button.

And the lighting options are excellent.

And I'm guilty of not putting enough emphasis on the "continues to improve" aspect.

Why not use both?

Well ... you can't import/export character models between the two programmes.

Maybe you could green-screen in some The Movies content (I've not seen a tutorial on that, I don't know how to do it).

But it seems to me that the two are completely separate (although my sneak peek of Bongoman's Charlie Chaplin film shows that it is possible).

After 3 years, I'm amazed that "The Movies" has held up so well.

The sheer variety of animations and costumes, easily accessible, has helped create sheer masterpieces. Why can the same not be said of iClone? - because to make a masterpiece with that would take you several months. I believe that the first proper masterpiece with that program will definitely come from a member of the ex-The Movies community - a person who is dedicated enough to get to grips with it in order to realise their vision.

Moviestorm has improved to the extent where certain types of film are capable of being made into masterpieces. Just forget the horses and pets, and anything where someone has to climb some stairs in the rain. For now.

[Mefune Akira]

I agree on the undo button.

And the lighting options are excellent.

And I'm guilty of not putting enough emphasis on the "continues to improve" aspect.

Why not use both?

Well ... you can't import/export character models between the two programmes.

Maybe you could green-screen in some The Movies content (I've not seen a tutorial on that, I don't know how to do it).

But it seems to me that the two are completely separate (although my sneak peek of Bongoman's Charlie Chaplin film shows that it is possible).

Well I can only speak for my films, but now that outside editing is the norm, most shots for my films are done with green/blue/red/black/white screen. All of my horror films are 80% green screen shots. So combining MS and TM together isn't an issue. Sisch's Saving Grace is a perfect example.

As far as why hasn't iclone taken off is VERY simple....$200+ to buy the thing. Well at least that's my reasoning. However, from seeing sneak peaks at iclone films like Lizard's movie and what Dulci has accomplished, Id say iclone isn't far behind.

[Nahton]

I've dived head first into MovieStorm and I am loving it. I have found working with the current interface very intuitive and cringe at the thought of going back to the AMM/PP workflow process....at least for now. The MovieStorm filming process is drastically more econmical in this respect. There is no more shooting of extra footage to make sure you have enough to fit the scene. Instead, you are able to watch the exact scene you want come together right before your eyes. Instant changes can be made if you need to tweek a camera angle or add a subtle expression. The road from conception to visualization is straight and painless and not meandering and frustratingly strewn with hours of wasted effort in the form of discarded footage.

Yes, it has limitations and you need to work within the program. I have flim ideas that were destined for production in TM that are in limbo because they can't be made in MS, at least not yet. So what are the negatives? The lack of "in car" driving scenes is a primary oversight for me. As previously mentioned by JazzX there are no animals. There are also no human costumes for apes or other non-human forms, which may seem random but is an easy fix or mod, I would think. As Sisch mentioned, some of the areas they are lacking in currently are on the development drawing board. I would agree at this point it is a weak tool for creating believable action sequences. The available character base and modifications options are extremely limited.

The program shines in dialogue based production. You can load a scene with characters and tweak your scene actions in so many levels including the action going on in the background behind the main characters. Subtle glances and motions can be put into a scene exactly where you want them. There is no "oh, I've used/seen this scene before" recognition factor.

I could go on further but I'm running out of gas for tonight.

If you want to check out a variety of types of films that can be produced with the program check out:

Saving Grace by Sisch
Casteneda Cops by Bongoman
Act3Scene24's Movies
Overman's Studio Page (on his blog)

I'll have to provide links at another time.

[Roger]

I think the OP picks out the advantages and disadvanteges of each program pretty well. It then comes down to what film you want to make and what you feel most comfortable with.

The Movies is an excellent program that will continue to be used for many years to come.

iClone is a very detailed and amazing program with ultimate control.

Moviestorm is always developing and improving and is a lot cheaper than iClone.

My current preference is for Moviestorm. Not because it is better or worse than any other software, but because it does what I want for the films I want to make and suits my filmmaking process very well.

[rage]

for me it was a case of which software best suited the vision i had for my movie. i see grayskull as a fantasy epic, with large scale battles, accurately sized models, suitably gritty lighting.

i soon realised that the movies game engine could not provide the means to match my vision. i had a look at moviestorm, and again, although a great program, still compromised my vision. iclone however is a different story.

with that the only limit is myself, i can get the shots that are in my head out accurately and with minimum fuss. right now, i couldnt see myself switching back to the movies, it feels like the shackles have been removed!

[bongo]

TM is getting out of date. The render quality & framerate are inadequate nowadays. Moviestorm is nice, but has problems. IClone looks great but costs $ and from what I've read, is a bit difficult to mod. But so is Moviestorm.

But if i had to choose between making my sleeping arrangements with a Moviestorm model or an Iclone model... I wouldn't be making babies, I'd be making clones.

Having said that though, i'm currently enjoying working with Moviestorm.

[Lizard]

TM is getting out of date. The render quality & framerate are inadequate nowadays. Moviestorm is nice, but has problems. IClone looks great but costs $ and from what I've read, is a bit difficult to mod. But so is Moviestorm.

I agree with most of that. "The Movies" was great in it's day but we can only see now the limitations it has. There are still people making great advancements on the modding front to provide new content and hopefully new animations tools one day. I don't believe it's glory has ended and I expect still great things from it. But the engine will not change and certain things can not be changed from it's original programming. This is where it can be clearly seen that people will consider moving to evolving software like Moviestorm and iClone. And, when you read the Moviestorm development blogs it looks like they are commited to meeting the requests of it's users. That is a welcoming sign isn't it?

But, as far as modding, I would almost have to say that for both MS and iClone they are probably both better set up for modding than TM ever was. I have done minimal modding within TM and now, moreso iClone. TM modding was difficult for me as the need for scripts to import TM meshfiles and then working with a full features CAD software such as "Blender". But for modding it seems you are limited to only that route.

From what I read of the Sketchup importer for MS, it seems very much like iClone's 3DXchange though you have to apply as a Modder to obtain it. Speaking from my experiences, 3DX is almost not modding at all as you simply bring content in (thousands of models available) and can in it's remedial form change glossiness, colors and perhaps size before bringing into the program. If you needed to go a step further, Google Sketchup allows you to have more control of objects and grouping and materials to better customize at a level very easy to grasp for the common user. This is available to the Stormers and the Cloners. It seems to me a lot easier to understand than using Blender or 3D Max and so on. I can do it. That says it's pretty simple. ;)

[Uber]

I have a couple of projects which were started in the movies, and by gum i intend to finish them in the movies. That being said, when they are done, i am switching to Iclone and intend to redo all my favourites, especially the enigma series. I have kept all VOs in everyone of my movies since day one.

So i will be able to go at my own pace.

As for what is better; i have seen some really shitty movies in moviestorm and iclone as well as the movies; i believe a bad tradesman blames his tools.

[Fospherous]

Personally I've tried Moviestorm...it's ok, it would need to be updated alot more and have more features in it to make me a full time user of the software, but currently I'm sticking to The Movies...Why?...because it's just so easy and thats why I intend to keep using it.

[asa.oleary123]

I downloaded moviestorm again and im definately keeping it this time, improved a lot since last time. And it sounds like a lot of new stuff is coming

[bongo]

Yup, the evolution is keeping me into Moviestorm, and the look of it is getting nicer all the time.

For pure usability though I agree that TM is easier, and faster to make movies with... good or bad depends on the director. MS requires a lot of twaeking, but results in finer, more subtle control - if thats what you need.

[goofparade]

Yup, the evolution is keeping me into Moviestorm, and the look of it is getting nicer all the time.

MS requires a lot of tweaking, but results in finer, more subtle control - if thats what you need.

I would imagine that after 3 years of "set" animations on TM, suble control would be a sought after feature for any director.

MS is changing and improving quickly due to it's excellent support. I'm excited about
a) new software for making movies: Iclone, MOvieStorm
b) TMU itself, which encourages outside editing, now we are creating a whole new level of hybrid Machinima. It is a cool time.

[Bezzer]

I remember when the movies came out, thinking about its potential...all the expansion packs, variety of content, updates and so on...that never happened.

I love the movies, but if it wasn't for the brilliant modders out there, I would have lost interest in it a long time ago.

I've been following Moviestorm since early beta and I'm really impressed with how much it's developed over the past year, but I feel the progress has been slow...at least slower than its contenders.

Maybe this is a good thing as the developers can fine tune their creation and eventually deliver a relatively bug free working environment and tons of content...what we all hoped would happen with the movies...but it just seems slow in coming.

I hold the same high hopes for moviestorm as I did when the movies was released though and fingers crossed, this time there's no reason why it can't happen.

[rage]

I would imagine that after 3 years of "set" animations on TM, suble control would be a sought after feature for any director.

yep, especially when you have to animate some of those scary beastman lines you recorded lol :thumbup:

[Killian]

From my perspective, IClone and Moviestorm, whilst great bits of kit in their own right, simply don't blow my skirt up enough for me to stop using TM at this present moment.

Why? Well, the main thing is the stiffness of the animations and off-kilter avatars they currently use; something about them just puts me off right at this moment in time.

As it stands, I don't feel that they are QUITE there yet as tools that I'm happy to use myself, but I have both and will be experimenting with both to see which suits my own "vision" best; right now, if I had to choose, I'd probably come down more in the direction of iClone, but that could (and probably will!) change as new content and fixes become available, between now and when I have the opportunity to sit down and actually work my way through them both.

My 2 copper's worth, anyroad...

[asa.oleary123]

One thing i will say is that the freedom of the camera in moviestorm is a welcome change

[JazzX]

One thing i will say is that the freedom of the camera in moviestorm is a welcome change

Well - this free cam has a mind of its own - check out the tracking shot of Beauty's breasts (that's what I should have called this [that wasn't intended by me, I'm too much of a gentleman!]) near the end of my first two movies used with Moviestorm (in one - confused? check it out)

Beauty's Bedroom (Technical Demonstration) (http://www.tmunderground.com/watch/c8ffcaa696a5a1663917/Beauty%27s-Bedroom-(Technical-Demonstration))

For those who rightly can't be bothered, here's some observations I made while making it:



Here is both my first and second tentative steps into Moviestorm (read on to see why).

We begin in Beauty's bedroom, which I constructed painstakingly from scratch - the camera pulls away from the window, a shot of one of my The Movies films (superimposed using a green screen backdrop via an external editor).

The camera then works its way to a lap top on a desk - here the lap top plays my very first Moviestorm film, then the camera pulls away to look again at Beauty.

One slow camera move later, we get a cheeky ending as her eyes are trained on our own.

Plenty of bugs I noticed making this - the posture command disappeared completely at one point, there was a glitch in the Left channel of the sound and the capability of using objects completely disappeared (as in sitting down on a chair).

Worse still - the .wmv export went at double speed!

And the avi export refused to be imported into Magix (where I needed to do the chroma-keying with The Movies footage) - so I had to convert it to .wmv in Windows Movie Maker before I could throw it into Magix. That meant it had to be exported twice, doubling the time.

So - I can see how it might become a good program, but at the moment it still has more bugs than a spies' convention.

One further observation, I had to construct Beauty's bed from some crates and a wrought iron fence as no bed is included with the basic set of props (grrrrr!!!) - I wanted her to lie on it but, even when the postures are working, there seems to be no way of elevating a character so that it looks like they're doing a posture or action on top of an object. (I hope someone proves me wrong now). All I wanted to do was make her lie on the floor and then pick her up and put her on the bed! Similar to adjusting the floor markers (which is a good thing).

Instead, we, the viewers, end up on Beauty's bed at the end of the film - aren't half of us lucky! ;)


The aim of this experiment was to successfully construct a set from scratch, to successfully use a green screen backdrop, to successfully use the gesturizer and to successfully get the camera to move to the right places. An additional unexpected bonus was the ability to use props which could play movies themselves (though seemingly only in avi format).

I wasn't concerned with audio in this film - I just left the default footsteps in (even then, it buggered up! [briefly])

A partial success on most fronts.


PS. Those who like the Moviestorm tool - load it up now! Version 1.1.4 has just been released!

[Uber]

After having a play with Poser, I think i may have to lean that way. Its years ahead of iclone and moviestorm, has thousands of free and pay for mods, has hundreds of fan sites and tutorial. Only real set back is the learning curve. But with power comes complication. I dare say Poser is as far ahead of iclone/moviestorm as iclone/moviestorm is ahead of The Movies.

And its only $400, anyone can afford such a low price for such powerfull software.

[sisch]

Beauty's Bedroom (Technical Demonstration) (http://www.tmunderground.com/watch/c8ffcaa696a5a1663917/Beauty%27s-Bedroom-%28Technical-Demonstration%29)


How long did it take you to make that? You can't have taken much time - don't tell me you were satisfied with the camera movements and the glitches that appeared - you could have worked all those things out had you just taken some time (not even much time, I might add) , and cut the movie properly.

I really don't understand why people seem to think any other machinima software than TM has to be totally bug free, and why they think they can make a good movie in 30min - you certainly weren't able to make what I consider to be a good movie in 30min using TM, but MS should enable you to do it?
I get the feeling everyone was (is) just perfectly willing to spend loads of time on battling the sound bug in TM, fiddling hours with adjusting scenes on sets to which they're by design alien to, etc. etc. etc. - but MS has to deliver perfection from the first moment.

I don't get this approach. You'll have to understand the software you're using before you're able to offer an informed critique.

Watch this (http://www.tmunderground.com/watch/f68dc6014898c309e86b/Apology) or this (http://www.tmunderground.com/watch/dfdc2b83477cd76dee98/Armageddon-Blues) - those films will show you what is possible in MS.

The absence of limitation is death to creativity.

[Uber]

The absence of limitation is death to creativity.

Quote of the decade right there.

[Bezzer]

Those who like the Moviestorm tool - load it up now! Version 1.1.4 has just been released!

At least they seem to be ironing out the known bugs on a regular basis, which ain't a bad thing.

Plus, with each new content pack that's released, the character animations are also updated to the themes and other issues are adressed, which is also very encouraging.

I don't think MS is anywhere near fully cooked yet, but as I've said, I've seen great progress and have high hopes for it.

[JazzX]

How long did it take you to make that? You can't have taken much time - don't tell me you were satisfied with the camera movements and the glitches that appeared - you could have worked all those things out had you just taken some time (not even much time, I might add) , and cut the movie properly.

I really don't understand why people seem to think any other machinima software than TM has to be totally bug free, and why they think they can make a good movie in 30min - you certainly weren't able to make what I consider to be a good movie in 30min using TM, but MS should enable you to do it?
I get the feeling everyone was (is) just perfectly willing to spend loads of time on battling the sound bug in TM, fiddling hours with adjusting scenes on sets to which they're by design alien to, etc. etc. etc. - but MS has to deliver perfection from the first moment.

I don't get this approach. You'll have to understand the software you're using before you're able to offer an informed critique.

Watch this (http://www.tmunderground.com/watch/f68dc6014898c309e86b/Apology) or this (http://www.tmunderground.com/watch/dfdc2b83477cd76dee98/Armageddon-Blues) - those films will show you what is possible in MS.

The absence of limitation is death to creativity.


I made my first Moviestorm movie, crap as it was, and documented the pluses and minuses of the experience.

What's wrong with that?

[Uber]

There were pluses?

[JazzX]

There were pluses?

lol - you saw it too? (ok - I'll lose the "lol")

[sisch]

There were pluses?

I just wanted to ask that, too - if you mentioned any pluses in your summary, JazzX, you've successfully hidden them behind a rather high wall of minuses that you mentioned profusely.


So - I can see how it might become a good program, but at the moment it still has more bugs than a spies' convention.

I especially mind this statement - because it's not true. MS already is a good program - you've given me the feeling that you didn't even try to work around some of the things you perceive as bugs, that you didn't really take time to make it look good - like you would have done if this were a TM movie. That's what I'm complaining about.

It's rather easy to make a software look bad - I'm quite sure I could jump into my trial version of iClone right now and produce something buggy looking easily - and I'm certain I could do it with TM.

[Roger]

I find for me that Moviestorm is very intuitive to use. I must admit that when I come across bugs which is quite rare, I feel good in the knowledge that they will be addressed. The fact that MS is constantly improving and evolving is a great thing.

I watched Jazz's demo and thought it looked pretty good. The set made from scratch looked very good. The lighting was good, also the use of green screen was nice. For just using the basic free pack that is impressive. :)

As for the bed and lying down etc, that is where the add-on packs come into play. But I must say that Jazz's work around for making the bed was very inventive. :)

Changing the subject now:

I have now got a modding licence for Moviestorm and am playing around with it. It is a very nice friendly tool. I reckon I will be able to mod using it! :o

[JazzX]

I just wanted to ask that, too - if you mentioned any pluses in your summary, JazzX, you've successfully hidden them behind a rather high wall of minuses that you mentioned profusely.



I especially mind this statement - because it's not true. MS already is a good program - you've given me the feeling that you didn't even try to work around some of the things you perceive as bugs, that you didn't really take time to make it look good - like you would have done if this were a TM movie. That's what I'm complaining about.

I couldn't have made my experience clearer - but I will.

I took a couple of hours to make the set and get Beauty to perform her first action, then- a few hours later - I saved it all and got on with the rest of my life.

When I reloaded the next day, I tried to get Beauty to do a lie-down- but the "posture" thing wasn't even there.

No problem - it wasn't the purpose of the exercise and I got her to do something else instead.

But a bug had occured.

There were other bugs I found on my first go too- but I managed to produce a very simple crap movie nevertheless.

What do you expect me to say?

"I tried out Moviestorm this weekend and it was bloody perfect! I've never known a piece of software like it!"

?

[Uber]

perhaps not potificating would be a good start.

[JazzX]

perhaps not potificating would be a good start.

I would like to point out that it's "pontificating", it has an "n" in it.

[Uber]

Thank you for proving my point.

[sisch]

I couldn't have made my experience clearer - but I will.

I took a couple of hours to make the set and get Beauty to perform her first action, then- a few hours later - I saved it all and got on with the rest of my life.

When I reloaded the next day, I tried to get Beauty to do a lie-down- but the "posture" thing wasn't even there.

No problem - it wasn't the purpose of the exercise and I got her to do something else instead.

But a bug had occured.

There were other bugs I found on my first go too- but I managed to produce a very simple crap movie nevertheless.

What do you expect me to say?

"I tried out Moviestorm this weekend and it was bloody perfect! I've never known a piece of software like it!"

?

I don't think my posts implied that I expect you to say anything of that sort - in fact, in my first post I made a point saying that I think it strange if people expect a sophisticated software to be totally bug free.

Take the "lying on the bed" animation, for example - it is tied to the beds that come with an addon, and so not available if you don't have that addon - just like in TM; before we had all scenes on all sets; if the room had no bed, consequently no lie-down-on-bed animation. So, this is, in fact, no bug.

What I'm going on about here, as I feel you are perfectly aware, JazzX, is your - as I read it, and I don't think I'm the only one reading it this way - negative approach to the software after just playing with it for some hours. I do think you should give it some more time before you offer a critique.

[JazzX]

I don't think my posts implied that I expect you to say anything of that sort - in fact, in my first post I made a point saying that I think it strange if people expect a sophisticated software to be totally bug free.

Take the "lying on the bed" animation, for example - it is tied to the beds that come with an addon, and so not available if you don't have that addon - just like in TM; before we had all scenes on all sets; if the room had no bed, consequently no lie-down-on-bed animation. So, this is, in fact, no bug.

What I'm going on about here, as I feel you are perfectly aware, JazzX, is your - as I read it, and I don't think I'm the only one reading it this way - negative approach to the software after just playing with it for some hours. I do think you should give it some more time before you offer a critique.

Oh for God's sake!

When a feature like "posture" disappears for no reason - I know there's some bullshit going on.

I know you've become the "yes ma'am" of Moviestorm - they've practically given you (rightly, I'll soon add) the key to the software.

But this doesn't have anything to do with it, does it?

Talk to me via PM.

[sisch]

Oh for God's sake!

When a feature like "posture" disappears for no reason - I know there's some bullshit going on.

I know you've become the "yes ma'am" of Moviestorm - they've practically given you (rightly, I'll soon add) the key to the software.

But this doesn't have anything to do with it, does it?

Talk to me via PM.

I don't know what you're implying.

Okay, I misread the thingy about the postures - I didn't get that the whole feature disappeared - and yes, of course that's a bug. Just exit the program and start it up again - should work fine then.

I do feel insulted by your assumption that the Moviestorm developers have in any form "bought" my good will - they're neither "yes ma'am-ing" me, nor do I have "the key" to the software. I would feel horrible if anybody, due to your post, might assume that I have a "special" version of the program - I don't! All I've done with it is just due to investing loads of time in getting things just right - that's the way I always work; I did it with TM, now I do it with MS.

I happen to like MS, and thought your appraisal of the software on the negative side, which I found unfair because you only played with it for some hours. So I stepped in and voiced my concerns. I would have done the same for TM.

[Sparky]

Ok, this thread is getting way off track and quickly becoming a personal issue

Jazz, you cant have your cake and eat it. If you want to put your views and opinions out into the public domain then you must be prepared for people to respond to and challenge your views (kinda in the same way that you have the right to review everyones movies and be critical - right?)

What is a real shame is that you are regressing to petty jibes and insults when someone ruffles your feathers - your comments about Sisch were uncalled for and childish.

This started off an interesting discussion as to the differences between the 2 pieces of software and i for one would like to see it return to that

cheers

[Dulci]

As for what is better; i have seen some really shitty movies in moviestorm and iclone as well as the movies; i believe a bad tradesman blames his tools.


Agree with this 100%.

[Kit06]

I do not think there is a 'dominant' movie making tool.

I can only use Moviestorm and Iclone at the moment sadly, I prefer using 'The Movies' because I am used to the software, but I do not think they outmatch others.

I have seem some movies that have used multiple movie making tools, and they seem really, really good to me. It shows skill, and different angles, I am all for it!

This is like the old Scotland vrs England wars, at the end they united to make a bigger and better country, could the tools work together here and make something truely great? I sure hope so.

Kit

[kuroken]

This is why I don't like "this vs. that" threads, because it almost always degenerates into "mine is bigger/better than yours" in one shape or form, and that runs counter to what I see as our "mission statement" for lack of a better term.

None of these packages is perfect. None of these packages is the be-all and end-all of machinima making. They all have things they do well, and things they do less well. And each of us has chosen what we're going to use, based on all the factors I mentioned in a previous post.

I don't think any of us is a fanboy or fangirl, so much as we're working with software, we're exploring what we can do with it, we're working around bugs, inconveniences, and things our chosen software just flat-out can't do right now...and we're all looking to the future, when the regular updates (for MovieStorm and iClone) and amazing work by the modding community (for The Movies) squashes bugs or at least adds functionality that allows us to get our full vision on the screen using the software.

Good, sometimes great things are being done with all three programs. I have no doubt that in six months, we'll be looking back on today's masterpieces and saying "Oh, yeah, that was pretty good, for it's time, but now...."

So if we wanna talk about the software, let's talk about the software, or the movies being made with the software, and avoid making it about the filmmakers - all of us are hopefully better filmmakers than we were last month, but not as good as we'll be next month. And what we chose to make our films with is based on preference, not absolutes.

[bongo]

None of these programs are perfect. Least of ALL is Poser.

I've been using Poser to make a 'blockbuster'... only over 6 months later, I'm STILL freakin working on it!! I bought the $250 version of Poser 7, and I don't think I'll use it EVER again beyond the models, which I'll import to Blender. It looks great, bloody great... but what a nightmare, and I'm a faithful manual-reader. It can make cloth, really shitty slow cloth, but it does it. As soon as you focus the eyes of a character on an object, say goodby to hair and anything else linked to the head, they'll stay suspended in the air like floating testaments to the money I wasted.. No solution, either, except paint the freakin hair on the skull tex. Layer options don't help. And look out for those layers, they are another nightmare on their own. Bah. Whats the point having beautiful models if they don't even walk properly?! (You can see glitches galore when I release 'Clandestine Invasion: Belly of the Beast', in spite of fixing all the motion glitches for a month, it will still show defects)

As for Moviestorm, it is a useful, free product, and I use it that way, it's not open Source like blender, so I expect the type of imperfections that come from corporately-produced products.

Jazz, the girl won't lie down without the bedroom addon, which includes character animations. Which costs money. Short Fuze is, after all, looking to make a profit somehow. However, I had similar issues with MS when I started using it as well, simply cuz I was accustomed to TM. MS still needs a lot of improvement. But it's free, and moddable, with new mods every day.

As TM eventually came to be defined by the content modders made for it, and therefore still has users (I still have it installed too) because of its flexibility & awesome content, so shall MS be... eventually.

IClone looks great, and I think it's not the machinima leader cuz for so long it was hard to mod. Without the mods, there's not enough choice, and people migrate to choice. This is why MS has gained ground, certainly not for its good looking models, but for its evolving flexibility. Though I've been pestering them for over a year to release the character meshes & armatures and they haven't complied yet. (ha ha I'm like the government asking for taxes, they probably hate me).

Finally, regarding Sisch & MS... Saving Grace is on the front page cuz Short Fuze is a company looking to show off its product in the best light currently available, and because its a product specifically designed for the visualization of the user's imagination, their choice to feature it was the best advertising they could have chosen for that site. In addition to being a well crafted story, from their perspective it also showed off the new features of MS, like the focus feature. I've been in & out of MS for a long, long time. In fact it was Sisch's movie that made me take another look at it most recently - specifically, the focus feature caught my attention right away.

PS: Blender is free, and is without a single defect that I can find. Not one. I hear Linux is rock solid, another Open Source software (op system in fact).
Why is it that companies can't get software right, and unpaid collectives of people can?

[thebiz]

....say goodby to hair and anything else linked to the head, they'll stay suspended in the air like floating testaments to the money I wasted..

Perhaps the most amusing testimonial yet...


....Why is it that companies can't get software right, and unpaid collectives of people can?

Its an interesting subject for sure. I read a pretty cool article lately about open source really gaining acceptance because of this issue of reliability (linux, mozilla, ect) while the older corporate model still tries to equate purchase price with reliability and is failing.

[riott007]

I have one comment..and I think it's legit (maybe)
Here goes:

What kind of position where you going for with this lay on the bed thing? Was it the reverse cowgirl? (With some good camera angles - you can make this work)

Also, Jazz..with any new program that you are trying out -you must remember to make allowances for user error or inability.

Anyway- this was a message from the wanker of the week.

[kuroken]

IClone looks great, and I think it's not the machinima leader cuz for so long it was hard to mod. Without the mods, there's not enough choice, and people migrate to choice.
Not to derail this thread or take it off topic, but I'm not sure where the idea that it was hard to mod comes from - for at least the past year+, since iClone 2.5 was released, they've had both 3dExchange (which imports both Google 3D Warehouse models as well as any .3ds/.obj model you can make or find - my little Lincolnshire Poacher camera test (http://www.tmunderground.com/watch/0b520d281c122d149065/Lincolnshire-Poacher-Bar-Test-1) takes place in a poser bar set that I exported as an obj from Daz, imported into 3ds Max, rearranged the furniture, did some texturing in Max, saved out as a .3ds file, and imported into iClone - that was done with 2.5 last spring). At that time, they had CloneCloth as well, which allows for pretty comprehensive clothing modeling (more graphics skill than I have probably required, but if you already know how to texture, pretty easy). And they also had both the ability to import BVH motion-capture animations and modify/build your own animations within the program.

Honestly, when I decided after Last Rites that I would never make another movie using The Movies, it was iClone's ease of modding that ultimately tipped me to that over Moviestorm or any other package.

Ken

[JazzX]

I do feel insulted by your assumption that the Moviestorm developers have in any form "bought" my good will - they're neither "yes ma'am-ing" me, nor do I have "the key" to the software. I would feel horrible if anybody, due to your post, might assume that I have a "special" version of the program - I don't! All I've done with it is just due to investing loads of time in getting things just right - that's the way I always work; I did it with TM, now I do it with MS.



This needs to be dealt with, as it's a direct slur on my character (in bold type no less) and completely untrue.

I have never insinuated that you have special privileges on Moviestorm. Or an amazing beta that nobody else can have.
You are rightly their poster-girl of the moment, the first person ever to make a really good film with the software.

Reluctantly (I was hoping to save this for the proper time), I have to say you'll be getting a glowing review for "Saving Grace" which I watched last Friday. [reluctant - simply because my review threads are always supposed to be the place where I voice my opinions on films - I hate giving that away early to defend myself; my reviews are supposed to be above forum bullshit, but I have no option here]

You made a good film using mainly Moviestorm (and deserve the key to the software!) and I became intrigued enough to take my first steps in using it.

It was you who made me curious enough to give it a go!

For anyone who doesn't know:

Moviestorm forums has a sort of reputation system and VC system all in one - quite ingenious.

If you make good films, and good posts, they award you Moviestorm points (usually by the hundred) - every point is worth 1 pence. I myself, as a "Pioneer" (an early beta tester) have been granted 1000 points. That means I have £10 to spend in the expansion shop. I'm also a member of their exclusive "Pioneer's" club as a result.

I'm debating about whether I spend those (999 points to be exact) on the sci-fi pack or the r'n'b music pack (which has keyboards and people playing trumpet!)

Sisch - who didn't have 1000 points at the time (she had to be seconded into the Pioneer's club after "Saving Grace" came out), chose to purchase the sci-fi pack in order to make "Saving Grace", which I encourage everyone to watch.

I hope they've given her a ton of points! She deserves them.

If I was Short Fuze I would give her all the expansion packs, she passionately believes in their software and is clearly - from a marketing perspective - worth it. She should be given the "key to the software". It makes good business sense given what she's capable of producing.

...

so, I took my first steps and documented the experience.

I then set up this thread, I actually expected the poll to show an overwhelming approval for Moviestorm - it's not my fault that it doesn't.

It's got people talking - and I thought we were doing great, one person says how much they like the Movies, another says how much they like Moviestorm and another says none-of-the-above-I-use-iclone. It was fine - and it's going to continue that way.

It is supposed to be a bit of fun. (as is my cruddy first film).

I'm going to do another of these threads when Moviestorm 1.2 comes out - to see if peoples' opinions have changed. I will make a movie using that and document the experience once again.

I have regularly criticised "The Movies" for its shortcomings and have been one of the best people at getting around them.

In one of my first films, a music video called "5 Stars", I identified those problems and beat them.

I beat the sound-synch bug using a system of shaving off the end of scenes to keep it in line with the music.

I found that entering Post Production while the radio announcer was in "old-fashioned" mode made your films sound "old fashioned"

I found that making the name of your backdrop over 20 characters long made it disappear and unavailable from the menu.

I found that moving between Post Pro and AMM when you have multiple shots can cause them to duplicate and shuffle. But also that already locked shots were safe - so the solution was to just do one or two shots at a time.

I found that setting the dialogue volume to zero makes the animations run slower and go out of synch than if you set it to just above zero.

And after all of that - I found that after exporting the film, there were black screens which threw everything out again.

I made a scientific hypothesis using the same pack of cards I was shuffling during export - it was like jokers in a pack of cards when they're not supposed to be there. And I hypothesised that they could be shuffled out of the pack - and maybe in the movie as well. I called these "Jokers" - the 'Devil's Bookmark'. And it worked.

All along the way, I shared my observations - cruel as they might seem to any Lionhead fanboy or girl. I also shared my fixes as well.

That's kind of what I'm hoping for in this thread.

I say something like "where have all the postures gone?"

And somebody else says something like "you need to press CTRL-B, then click right mouse and they come back dumbass".

Not "how dare you insult the software JazzX! If you try hard enough you'll get there eventually!"

... well yes, I will. I'll find a way - that's what I'm good at, but I'd like some practical help too to make it a lot less of a lengthy process than The Movies was.

When the postures disappeared, I thought I did something wrong.

Sisch's solution works - just reload. But I didn't know that and soldiered on regardless then exported the movie.

In time, I'll work out how to beat these bugs - just as I did with The Movies. And I'll be the first to document my solutions here - and maybe I'll print them out and hand them to Shortfuze whose office is located in my own city near where I used to live - I'm round that way every Monday and Tuesday.

[JazzX]

Ok, this thread is getting way off track and quickly becoming a personal issue

Jazz, you cant have your cake and eat it. If you want to put your views and opinions out into the public domain then you must be prepared for people to respond to and challenge your views (kinda in the same way that you have the right to review everyones movies and be critical - right?)

What is a real shame is that you are regressing to petty jibes and insults when someone ruffles your feathers - your comments about Sisch were uncalled for and childish.

This started off an interesting discussion as to the differences between the 2 pieces of software and i for one would like to see it return to that

cheers

A complete misreading of the situation. And a heavy handed post.

"Petty jibes and insults" - absolute rubbish.

Put your police badge away, you've contributed nothing to this interesting discussion and then make out it's gone "way off track" because of two posts which weren't that bad from either party, ignoring all the other great posts.

There was no need for that at all.

I mean no harm to anyone - not Sisch, you, or the team at Shortfuze. I never have.

[bongo]

... I'm not sure where the idea that it was hard to mod comes from - for at least the past year+, since iClone 2.5 was released, they've had both 3dExchange (which imports both Google 3D Warehouse models as well as any .3ds/.obj model you can make or find...

Ken

Hm, I guess I looked it over before 2.5 then. Thanks for the info Ken. I'd heard that 3DXchange was the passport to mods in IClone recently, but had no details on its use. Do you have to buy it to get 3DXchange?
cheers

[JazzX]

Hm, I guess I looked it over before 2.5 then. Thanks for the info Ken. I'd heard that 3DXchange was the passport to mods in IClone recently, but had no details on its use. Do you have to buy it to get 3DXchange?
cheers

From my initial observation, 3DXchange is a part of iClone.

I'm not sure if you have to pay extra for it - my 6-year-old crashed before I got the chance to find out.

[kuroken]

Hm, I guess I looked it over before 2.5 then. Thanks for the info Ken. I'd heard that 3DXchange was the passport to mods in IClone recently, but had no details on its use. Do you have to buy it to get 3DXchange?
cheers
It comes with both standard and pro versions of iClone in the boxed version - can also buy it for $20 with downloaded iClone versions, or standalone for $70.

Full info is right here (http://www.reallusion.com/iclone/3dx.asp) - I haven't come even close to all the stuff you can do with it - I'm just happy to find a nice poser set, or 3ds model and be able to bring it into my films.

(and now back to the thread, already in progress...)

Ken

[bongo]

Thanks Ken :)




Its an interesting subject for sure. I read a pretty cool article lately about open source really gaining acceptance because of this issue of reliability (linux, mozilla, ect) while the older corporate model still tries to equate purchase price with reliability and is failing.

I'd love to read the article, post the link if you have it handy.

Also it would be useful to post Open Source programs, what they do & where to download them, there's apparantly word processing, databasing, animation & all sorts of them. Animata was one that particularly intrigued me, I think Dulci 1st posted about it here, its a real-time animation program that is triggered by your physical motion in front of a contrasting background, captured by video.

Regarding IClone's lack of prominence in the machinima market... Ken has pointed out that in fact IClone is quite moddable. So why isn't it the one? Was the purchase price higher at one point, wasn't it like $200 to buy a year ago, if you wanted 3DXchange with it? Thats the only influence I can figure at this point.

But then, I still havent figured out how to animate lighting in MS yet, lol. :taz:

[JazzX]

Thanks Ken :)


I'd love to read the article, post the link if you have it handy.

Also it would be useful to post Open Source programs, what they do & where to download them, there's apparantly word processing, databasing, animation & all sorts of them. Animata was one that particularly intrigued me, I think Dulci 1st posted about it here, its a real-time animation program that is triggered by your physical motion in front of a contrasting background, captured by video.

Regarding IClone's lack of prominence in the machinima market... Ken has pointed out that in fact IClone is quite moddable. So why isn't it the one? Was the purchase price higher at one point, wasn't it like $200 to buy a year ago, if you wanted 3DXchange with it? Thats the only influence I can figure at this point.

But then, I still havent figured out how to animate lighting in MS yet, lol. :taz:

Lol - my own theory is that in order to own iClone, you need a seriously proper job - which doesn't allow you the time to use it! :)

[Lizard]

Thanks Ken :)
Regarding IClone's lack of prominence in the machinima market... Ken has pointed out that in fact IClone is quite moddable. So why isn't it the one?

Which one is the one? I wanna get that one. :D

[JazzX]

Which one is the one? I wanna get that one. :D

Great question.

I saw something extremely impressive in Second Life, the one night I was there.

My guide, Lippy, who had attended the big "Second Life" premiere night late last year, afterwards transported me to her director's theatre and we watched an updating of 70s erotic classic "The Story of O" starring her and set in the Star Trek universe (the dominant character was a Borg).

I asked her what software was used to make the film - and she said that "it was all made in Second Life".

In other words, a video capture program is used and all the actors gather together to perform the necessary actions in a location on Second Life.

Basically Second Life is used as a real-life movie set (with limitless possibilities) with real actors on it.

[bongo]

...Basically Second Life is used as a real-life movie set (with limitless possibilities) with real actors on it.

the options are really amazing. I checked SL quite a while ago, should drop in again now that I have a decent graphics card.

But I know why SL won't become a great machinima tool either, cuz i'm a musician. It's hard enough to get the bass player to show up for a gig in RL...:):mad: so human nature dictates most of our movie 'actors' will remain automated, directly under our control.

[JazzX]

the options are really amazing. I checked SL quite a while ago, should drop in again now that I have a decent graphics card.

But I know why SL won't become a great machinima tool either, cuz i'm a musician. It's hard enough to get the bass player to show up for a gig in RL...:):mad: so human nature dictates most of our movie 'actors' will remain automated, directly under our control.

Lol - exactly.

It's hard enough to get an actress - but to get them to show up on set in Second Life, and on time - that must be very difficult.

And getting them to do the correct actions must be tough too - though Lippy was a pro (when "O" was doing the business, she was rocking along).

It's a completely different mindset.

[bongo]

I had tried this same principle in the UT2004 mod I made for TM; nobody showed much interest, to my surprise.
It's exactly the same basic idea - people log in online, but into a UT2004 map instead of SL, where they have the use of weaponry & vehicles, and where I modded in the TM minicity (among others) and TM characters. There's voice as well as text chat so the director can easily speak to the actors to direct action sequences, and bots can even be added to help populate the scene. The entire scene can be saved as a demo & replayed innumerable ways, or it can be recorded with Fraps.
Maybe nobody had UT2004 or something, in spite of it being rated the best 3d shooter game for 3 years running. A couple of people got excited about it, but most panned it. JosephKW was one of the few people who realized its potential, and has a copy of the game. Skeltch too.
And part of the problem was scheduling - Joseph lives in California, I'm in Toronto. One of us was going to have to be sleep deprived.

[josephkw]

I had tried this same principle in the UT2004 mod I made for TM; JosephKW was one of the few people who realized its potential, and has a copy of the game. Skeltch too.
And part of the problem was scheduling - Joseph lives in California, I'm in Toronto. One of us was going to have to be sleep deprived.

For those who've seen my "Dark Tides of Innsmouth", I used Bongoman's modified UT2004 to create the advancing army of the Deep Ones, spewing out of the ocean. That scene garnered quite a few positive comments.

I agree that coordinating numerous performers to come online at the same time is tough, but the ability to use automated performers is a huge plus in Bongoman's system.

[JazzX]

For those who've seen my "Dark Tides of Innsmouth", I used Bongoman's modified UT2004 to create the advancing army of the Deep Ones, spewing out of the ocean. That scene garnered quite a few positive comments.

I agree that coordinating numerous performers to come online at the same time is tough, but the ability to use automated performers is a huge plus in Bongoman's system.

So that's how you did it!

A brilliant climax to the movie that made my jaw drop.

(I've just watched the ending again)


I thought it was a clever combination of "actors as props" and overlay animation (for the climbing of the walls).

But I was clearly wrong.

My only experience of Unreal Tournament is one of the early 2000 versions (2003, I think). People still play it, and it's great fun, and my computer can handle it. [I keep getting accused of "camping" - what's that?]

(well - they all cheat anyway - finding a hidden corner to ambush them from is my only advantage! [preferred weapon: flak cannon or sniper rifle])

...

erm ..

.. just wow!

[josephkw]

So that's how you did it!

A brilliant climax to the movie that made my jaw drop.

(I've just watched the ending again)


I thought it was a clever combination of "actors as props" and overlay animation (for the climbing of the walls).

But I was clearly wrong.

My only experience of Unreal Tournament is one of the early 2000 versions (2003, I think). People still play it, and it's great fun, and my computer can handle it. [I keep getting accused of "camping" - what's that?]

(well - they all cheat anyway - finding a hidden corner to ambush them from is my only advantage! [preferred weapon: flak cannon or sniper rifle])

...

erm ..

.. just wow!

So YOU'RE the guy who keeps making those head shots at my expense! You're the sole reason I quit playing Unreal Tournament and bought the Movies.

Oh, back on topic...

No, you weren't wrong. I did use actors as props for the townsfolk mob scenes, and for the wall-climb scene it was all frame-by-frame hand-drawn animated overlays. Only the Deep Ones mob marching on land was done with Bongoman's technique. I used all the tricks I knew of to bring that climax to the screen.

[thebiz]

Thanks Ken :)
I'd love to read the article, post the link if you have it handy.


The article was in the NYtimes and was about a statistical programming language called R. (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/technology/business-computing/07program.html?_r=1) Might be a bit dry for some but theres a great quote from an SPSS guy (competing and older commercial software) about how he wouldnt want free software used in an airplane because..the inference is that R is unreliable even though some of the most reliable and user freindly software out there is freeware/shareware open source.


I had tried this same principle in the UT2004 mod I made for TM; nobody showed much interest, to my surprise.

The only video game I play on my computer was The Movies. Everything else is on the PS3 so that ruled me out. I just dont have the machine for that sort of thing. Was an intriguing idea though. I love the Second Life model of an entire world of nothing but user creations. A lot of possibilities there as well.



(well - they all cheat anyway - finding a hidden corner to ambush them from is my only advantage! [preferred weapon: flak cannon or sniper rifle])


I also never understood the hatred for the campers. Too realistic I suppose. In that kinda situation (if the apocalypse were to occur I suppose) I'll be holed up with a sniper rifle as well instead of running about with nary a care in the world to getting my head blown off by a twelve year old with fast thumbs.

And finally to stay on target, I just saw your Don Juan MS movie Bongo. Very cool stuff. Care to share any details on your shadowcaster and panorama mods?

[act3scene24]

Aren't "campers" aka snipers a very important member in online team deathmatches on Halo? Maybe it's because it's not the easiest thing to do on Halo since they always get found after the first shot and immediately become a target.

[rileyman]

Too lazy to go back and quote the appropriate post. But regarding the commercial vs. open source thing:

Open source software certainly isn't guaranteed to be more stable (and in many cases definitely isn't). But what helps it more than anything is the lack of deadlines or monetary limits. Open source projects that get a steady group of people volunteering their time tend to be the most stable pieces of software in existence. If a bug gets documented by a user, there's no management to tell them "we don't have time for that". It may take a while, but it gets fixed eventually.

I think transparency helps it alot as well. No open source developer is going to be ashamed if someone finds a bug. After all, they're just volunteering their time. So bugs get documented, and are posted for everyone to see. Commercial developers, on the other hand, want to hide their bugs as much as possible.

[Orky]

Aren't "campers" aka snipers a very important member in online team deathmatches on Halo? Maybe it's because it's not the easiest thing to do on Halo since they always get found after the first shot and immediately become a target.

Campers and snipers are two different meanings, although both can and usually are applied to the same role. A camper is basically anyone who "camps" a particularly hard to attack/inaccessible area of a map, either moving very little or not at all and staying in one easily defended spot. For instance, standing behind a door with a shotgun and one-shotting everyone that comes through at point-blank range is "camping". Grenades are an easy way to take care of this in most situations but in cases where the game lacks grenades, it can be pretty crappy to deal with.

Snipers are just people that use long ranged/scoped guns. Usually though, snipers are often campers as well in most games, but a truly skilled sniper will realize that you gotta keep on moving around so as to not let your position be revealed.

Now how about that for off-topic?

- Orky

[JazzX]

Campers and snipers are two different meanings, although both can and usually are applied to the same role. A camper is basically anyone who "camps" a particularly hard to attack/inaccessible area of a map, either moving very little or not at all and staying in one easily defended spot. For instance, standing behind a door with a shotgun and one-shotting everyone that comes through at point-blank range is "camping". Grenades are an easy way to take care of this in most situations but in cases where the game lacks grenades, it can be pretty crappy to deal with.

Snipers are just people that use long ranged/scoped guns. Usually though, snipers are often campers as well in most games, but a truly skilled sniper will realize that you gotta keep on moving around so as to not let your position be revealed.

Now how about that for off-topic?

- Orky

Hehe - my thread, my rules!

In Unreal Tournament, one of the space station maps - I found a corner that was easy to defend and high as well - anyone coming into the room below was toast.

During a game of "Last Man Standing", with all these cheaters blowing the crap out of each other, I just sat there picking off the odd one until I ended up one-on-one with the winner.

Unfortunately, one of my deceased opponents gave my position away over the chat (which is also apparently not good etiquette) and I ended up being nuked! (the answer to everything!)

It nearly worked. And I think it's a legitimate defensive strategy for someone who doesn't have much offensive skill.

You could argue that a centre-back in soccer is a "camper" in their own half of the field! A real pain for the opposition attack, but I've never seen anybody get a red card for "camping". (and if an attacker "camps" - they get called offside)

Nature's greatest beasts are all "campers"! Lions and tigers all hide in their favourite spots, waiting for their chance.

"Easily defended"? Try the air! All birds of prey are "campers".

And fish. Just wow - there's camping going on in abundance on the sea floor. Tread on a stone fish , and you'll soon know it (briefly) before the end.

And so I come to our own species - campers, the lot of us!
And if we weren't, we wouldn't be here. Our intelligence has allowed us to know when we have an advantage in open combat and when to hide - or even to choose to hide in order to get a better advantage and minimise casualties.

Running around shooting people is sort of fun - but it's brainless fun. I've given up on FPS for that reason. I want a game with an element of stealth and strategy in it.

One of my favourite scenes is in from "From Russia With Love".
Here, the villain Blofeld explains the Japanese Fighting Fish. It watches the other two fish fight to the death and picks off the winner, it might as well be renamed the Japanese "Camping" Fish!

For me, just writing that, the ultimate FPS game would be one in which you could take control of an animal, all its advantages and weaknesses. I think that would be fascinating, as you would use your human instincts to control your chosen creature - could a sparrow possibly become a weapon against a tiger? In the hands of a human who knows a tiger's sleep cycle, yes (for that reason - it would have huge educational value as well, for the first time in FPS history) - but a Tiger's health bar would be absolutely massive compared to the sparrow's.

....

[JazzX]

...

Watching the end of Joseph's "Dark Tides" film last night, I joined it about a minute before the climax.

One scene had that tired old "man breaks door down with axe" animation.

But I paid real attention to it, it was perfect - the animation worked, the character really looks like he means to break down the door no matter how many times I've seen it.

That's a level which Moviestorm hasn't reached yet.

Take the silly old piano player animation - having just got Moviestorm's version of the same thing, there's six animation loops but nowhere does the pianist do anything dramatic on the keyboard (they never even move their hands into the bottom or upper octaves!) like in The Movies' loop. For that reason, a remake of one of my piano-based films is impossible - I need some dramatic animations to cut to at key points in the music (it's very dramatic music) - there's no "flourish" animation in Moviestorm right now.

We've got used to Starmaker - I think, with hindsight, it's probably the best part of The Movies package - we were/are able to create really characterful faces, ugly or beautiful it was up to us. At the moment, Moviestorm's faces are extremely beautiful, but bland at the same time. The sliders go from "slightly big nose" to "slightly small nose" - there's no extremes at all. Put simply, you can't create an ugly face in Moviestorm right now.

Joseph mentioned that he used an animated overlay to get the characters crawling up the wall.

Though possible, it would be a hell of a lot more difficult to do this in Moviestorm. An outside editor would be a necessity. That's because Moviestorm doesn't yet have an overlay capability. Overlays were a great thing for The Movies, it meant you could paper over any cracks with a bit of ingenuity, and without the need for an external program. Moviestorm's developers should seriously consider this as a matter of urgency.
Backdrops aren't a problem, but overlays are.

Before anyone accuses me of bashing "Moviestorm and its users" again (utter bullshit which I still haven't had an apology for), I spent £10 on an expansion two nights ago. I am genuinely interested in this software and its potential (the lighting rig prop doesn't work though, and hasn't for over 8 months according to the forum - I feel a bit cheated of my money).

The Movies remains, for me, the better option - but with continued devolopment by Short Fuze, that may change in future. I think they should suspend the expansion packs and focus on the animations and character design side for a while; the gestures are a great thing though which The Movies could never boast - it's second to none as a "close-ups" piece of software. I'm pleased to see they're working on the "stairs" question at the moment too, that really does need to be addressed.

[kuroken]

We've got used to Starmaker - I think, with hindsight, it's probably the best part of The Movies package - we were/are able to create really characterful faces, ugly or beautiful it was up to us. At the moment, Moviestorm's faces are extremely beautiful, but bland at the same time. The sliders go from "slightly big nose" to "slightly small nose" - there's no extremes at all. Put simply, you can't create an ugly face in Moviestorm right now.
Agreed - right now, Starmaker is the only reason I still have The Movies installed, and that only because I think it might use Movies assets - if anybody has the standalone Starmaker they released prior to releasing The Movies, I'd love to get my hands on it and see.

With the relatively easy process of mapping starmaker faces to iClone characters, my initial plan had been to do all the faces in Conquest: Daedalus in Starmaker and map them, just as I'd done with my TM movies. However, with the eye-opening things Lizard has done with mapping photos and paintings to iClone faces (his mapping of Sitting Bull's face to an iClone head in this post (http://www.tmoaradio.com/vb/showpost.php?p=21691&postcount=17) is really outstanding) has made me reconsider using Starmaker exclusively.

Another suggestion he made, which has really got me thinking, is the use of halloween mask companies - remapping the photos of their masks for faces, like this one for instance:

http://www.emasks.com/images/MA210.jpg

I plan to use a mask face for my Zondaran characters, with a little additional tweaking within iClone. The above face, however, might be good for K4's character, Admiral Samuels (God, I hope K4 doesn't lurk in this thread or I'm a dead man!)

I do agree on the importance of having extensive facial modeling being needed for the kind of machinima we're doing, and I wish iClone, though okay, had even more face modeling tools than it has - however, I can get by at the moment with remapping images from other sources.

Ken

[Edit: Norrie was kind enough to give me a link for the original, standalone version of Starmaker that Lionhead released to get people excited aboout The Movies pre-release - http://themovies.filefront.com/file/Starmaker_Tool;51108 - I installed it on the XP virtual machine on my MacBook here, and it works like a champ - if anyone wants to quickly put together some faces for iClone characters (an hopefully someday MovieStorm characters as well) without either installing or buying The Movies, it's a worthy download...thanks, Norrie.]

[bongo]

[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/technology/business-computing/07program.html?_r=1"]...about how he wouldnt want free software used in an airplane because..the inference is that R is unreliable even though some of the most reliable and user freindly software out there is freeware/shareware open source.

The only video game I play on my computer was The Movies. Everything else is on the PS3 so that ruled me out. I just dont have the machine for that sort of thing. Was an intriguing idea though. I love the Second Life model of an entire world of nothing but user creations. A lot of possibilities there as well.

I just saw your Don Juan MS movie Bongo. Very cool stuff. Care to share any details on your shadowcaster and panorama mods?

Thanks for that Biz. It's very revealing, ha ha. Another strike against corporocity. Yeah, thats probably not a word.

UT2k4 came out a year before TM at least. If you can run TM, UT2004 runs great, well beyond minimum visual settings.
I don't play it at all, haven't in years. But I'm in and out of it every week these days. I can't think of an easier way to animate action scenes. The physics is all built in already - I just had to figure out how to get my stuff in there, to work within its constraints. I find actually playing the game too stressful :D - Usually.

The Shadowcaster is finally done, the link is posted in the MS modding forum, and I'll post it on Machinimods in a week or 2 as well.
THe Panorama... ugh. I'm STILL friggin around with smoothing issues on MS imports. DAE looses smoothing in conversion, OBJ carries smoothing over but most of the time shreds the model I guess thats the long way of saying, Panorama is still 'in development'.

I hate the YOU ARE cAMPING crap, I turn off the hud, I want to be right in there. But then, like I said, I hardly ever actually play the game as it was made to be.

EDIT: Holy crap that looks & sounds cool, Ken!

[JazzX]

Agreed - right now, Starmaker is the only reason I still have The Movies installed, and that only because I think it might use Movies assets - if anybody has the standalone Starmaker they released prior to releasing The Movies, I'd love to get my hands on it and see.

With the relatively easy process of mapping starmaker faces to iClone characters, my initial plan had been to do all the faces in Conquest: Daedalus in Starmaker and map them, just as I'd done with my TM movies. However, with the eye-opening things Lizard has done with mapping photos and paintings to iClone faces (his mapping of Sitting Bull's face to an iClone head in this post (http://www.tmoaradio.com/vb/showpost.php?p=21691&postcount=17) is really outstanding) has made me reconsider using Starmaker exclusively.

Another suggestion he made, which has really got me thinking, is the use of halloween mask companies - remapping the photos of their masks for faces, like this one for instance:

http://www.emasks.com/images/MA210.jpg

I plan to use a mask face for my Zondaran characters, with a little additional tweaking within iClone. The above face, however, might be good for K4's character, Admiral Samuels (God, I hope K4 doesn't lurk in this thread or I'm a dead man!)

I do agree on the importance of having extensive facial modeling being needed for the kind of machinima we're doing, and I wish iClone, though okay, had even more face modeling tools than it has - however, I can get by at the moment with remapping images from other sources.

Ken

[Edit: Norrie was kind enough to give me a link for the original, standalone version of Starmaker that Lionhead released to get people excited aboout The Movies pre-release - http://themovies.filefront.com/file/Starmaker_Tool;51108 - I installed it on the XP virtual machine on my MacBook here, and it works like a champ - if anyone wants to quickly put together some faces for iClone characters (an hopefully someday MovieStorm characters as well) without either installing or buying The Movies, it's a worthy download...thanks, Norrie.]

Yeah - checked out Sitting Bull and the Zondaran - it's just a case of how one animates these brilliant faces. That's something I know nothing about - but it must be a bit like that documentary on one of the "Lord of the Rings" DVDs I watched. Keyframes and morphing or something like that. Mapping dots from a wireframe skeleton onto specific points on the new faces maybe.

[kuroken]

Yeah - checked out Sitting Bull and the Zondaran - it's just a case of how one animates these brilliant faces. That's something I know nothing about - but it must be a bit like that documentary on one of the "Lord of the Rings" DVDs I watched. Keyframes and morphing or something like that. Mapping dots from a wireframe skeleton onto specific points on the new faces maybe.
Fairly simple, actually -

http://www.tmoaradio.com/daedalus/facemap.jpg

Import the picture, use the dots to indicate the contours of the mouth, nose, eyesockets, and eyebrows (can also do the same with the profile if you have a profile shot), and put the face on the character - since you're just "texturing" an existing face, all of the animation is already there (and you can fine tune it - twitching cheek, or whatever - in CrazyTalk if you have it).

It does take some trial and error, especially the first few - I was confused as to the proper location of the top dot in the diamond over the nose - tried a few things which resulted in a man who looked fine from the front, but decidedly piggy in profile, with a snout that reached for the sky....then Lizard clued me in that the bottom dot is the base of the nose, and the top dot is the "point" of the nose....things settled down after that.

[JazzX]

Fairly simple, actually -

http://www.tmoaradio.com/daedalus/facemap.jpg

Import the picture, use the dots to indicate the contours of the mouth, nose, eyesockets, and eyebrows (can also do the same with the profile if you have a profile shot), and put the face on the character - since you're just "texturing" an existing face, all of the animation is already there (and you can fine tune it - twitching cheek, or whatever - in CrazyTalk if you have it).

It does take some trial and error, especially the first few - I was confused as to the proper location of the top dot in the diamond over the nose - tried a few things which resulted in a man who looked fine from the front, but decidedly piggy in profile, with a snout that reached for the sky....then Lizard clued me in that the bottom dot is the base of the nose, and the top dot is the "point" of the nose....things settled down after that.

Looks easy enough (with practice, as you say) - is there a similar system for body gestures?

[kuroken]

Looks easy enough (with practice, as you say) - is there a similar system for body gestures?
Gestures are a different deal, more akin to modifying animation....

http://www.tmoaradio.com/daedalus/anim1.jpg

You're essentially editing the motion layer on the timeline - this same thing can be used for getting characters posed the way you want if they're sitting or standing relatively motionless - for example, in my Daedalus trailer, I put the character in a sitting pose, moved him where I wanted in the set, adjusted his right arm so it was resting on his knee and applied a built-in finger-twiddling motion, and lowered his head forward, chin towards his chest.

In that case, I wasn't doing anything on the timeline because I just wanted him in that position. It's done by clicking on a body part (forearm, shoulder, head, whatever) and then moving that part on one of the three planes...

http://www.tmoaradio.com/daedalus/anim2.jpg

In that shot, I selected her left forearm and rotated it up. If I wanted to have her start in that position, perhaps bringing in her arm/hand against her belly, I'd stop there. If I wanted her to have her arm at her side, and bring it up to her belly, I'd use the time line - dot at the beginning for the arm at the side, dot at the end for hand on belly, distance between the dots representing the speed with which her arm comes up. And if I liked that little movement, I could save it for later use.

So body gestures are basically treated as mini-animations, controlled on the timeline - I'm not sure I'd want to totally animate a character that way, but for small animations, or tweaks to existing animations, it's pretty simple...and there's an undo button when you accidently bury her arm into her chest....

I believe MovieStorm also has a timeline (hoping to get it on my MacBook this coming week so I can speak semi-coherently about it), and I would imagine gestures can be controlled the same way there, or something similar.

[JazzX]

Gestures are a different deal, more akin to modifying animation....

http://www.tmoaradio.com/daedalus/anim1.jpg

You're essentially editing the motion layer on the timeline - this same thing can be used for getting characters posed the way you want if they're sitting or standing relatively motionless - for example, in my Daedalus trailer, I put the character in a sitting pose, moved him where I wanted in the set, adjusted his right arm so it was resting on his knee and applied a built-in finger-twiddling motion, and lowered his head forward, chin towards his chest.

In that case, I wasn't doing anything on the timeline because I just wanted him in that position. It's done by clicking on a body part (forearm, shoulder, head, whatever) and then moving that part on one of the three planes...

http://www.tmoaradio.com/daedalus/anim2.jpg

In that shot, I selected her left forearm and rotated it up. If I wanted to have her start in that position, perhaps bringing in her arm/hand against her belly, I'd stop there. If I wanted her to have her arm at her side, and bring it up to her belly, I'd use the time line - dot at the beginning for the arm at the side, dot at the end for hand on belly, distance between the dots representing the speed with which her arm comes up. And if I liked that little movement, I could save it for later use.

So body gestures are basically treated as mini-animations, controlled on the timeline - I'm not sure I'd want to totally animate a character that way, but for small animations, or tweaks to existing animations, it's pretty simple...and there's an undo button when you accidently bury her arm into her chest....

I believe MovieStorm also has a timeline (hoping to get it on my MacBook this coming week so I can speak semi-coherently about it), and I would imagine gestures can be controlled the same way there, or something similar.

I hope there's some good preset animations, that looks like a lot of hard work otherwise!

Moviestorm doesn't have that level of sophistication - basically, you choose from some preset animations to go on the timeline (such as "punched in stomach" or "square up to fight" or "punches head (female)") There's a fair few, and you can save each sequence for later use - with each expansion, more animations become available - for instance, the recent Law & Order pack has animations for handcuffing and taking down suspects. And the two I've spent £10 and 1000 points on give my characters the ability to play a complete band's worth of musical instruments.

It can be quite useful when used in conjunction with props:

My latest experiment involved taking the angel-winged "Stacey K", my lead guitarist in "LambsBlood" and placing her on top of the amp while playing her guitar.

I then got her to do some of the fighting moves I've just mentioned - she did these while holding her guitar, giving her some very dramatic guitar-hero-ish gestures that weren't in the normal "plays guitar" animations. That's the kind of thing I'm looking for.

In an earlier experiment, my multi-talented instrumentalist sat down and bashed a piano while still holding both a trumpet and a saxophone! Though an accident, I could imagine the kind of music I would have to write there, a bit of inspiration struck ...

The gestures can also be performed while walking between two locations.

[Dulci]

Just a quick response - you can make your own animations, your iclone purchase comes with a few, you can buy some as packages through realillusion or individual purchases through Backstage, you can use any .bvh file you can get to work with iclone (I won't try to explain those technicalities), you can make your own animations...

And - what's the coolest to me currently - using the timeline, you can take any animation and chop it...using just the portion of the animation you want at the exact moment you want.

And using CrazyTalk Pro you can edit the facial features delivering ever split second of dialogue, or use pre-set "moods" to work along with your dialogue.

[JazzX]

Just a quick response - you can make your own animations, your iclone purchase comes with a few, you can buy some as packages through realillusion or individual purchases through Backstage, you can use any .bvh file you can get to work with iclone (I won't try to explain those technicalities), you can make your own animations...

And - what's the coolest to me currently - using the timeline, you can take any animation and chop it...using just the portion of the animation you want at the exact moment you want.

And using CrazyTalk Pro you can edit the facial features delivering ever split second of dialogue, or use pre-set "moods" to work along with your dialogue.

The facial gestures in Moviestorm are also handled using "moods" - then you go in and decided which eyelid to flutter or nostril to twitch.

The only way of chopping up animations mid-flow would be in the cutting room. Perhaps similar to what we've been doing in The Movies sometimes (well, the whole thing is/was chopping up different animations).

Moviestorm does have a useful randomiser that allows the actor to improvise - you get to choose whether to shout "CUT!" and have a tantrum at their improvising (and turn off the improvise feature - like I did at the end of Beauty's Bedroom - because she made a stupid gesture when I wanted her to stay perfectly still during the last shot!) or whether to let the take stand. For most things, I think it works; it allows some sort of naturalness to be going on - the amount of randomness to the gestures can be controlled via a slider, but I don't know how effective that is yet as a measure of control. At least if you don't like their performance you can always roll the dice again until something acceptable comes out.

[geoff-uk]

I own both Moviestorm and The Movies and I like both. I actually prefer The Movies though as it is easier to use and dosn't take as long to finish movies. I still think Moviestorm is great, esspecially for freeware.

[IceAxe]

What I'm noticing though, is that there are some Moviestorm users that are really pushing that program to do amazing things. I do think that a lot of movies look very similar to one another in Moviestorm, but I think that is also true of The Movies, plus I think that the best in class examples on Moviestorm show real depth and subtlety. Consider Sisch's Saving Grace, and BA's Daddy is Home. And the fact that there are new features added to Moviestorm on an almost monthly basis.
On the downside, I am a bit worried about what is happening at ShortFuze. The SF staff have a much lower profile on the Moviestorm forums than they used to - and it was the friendliness, rapid answers to support questions, and the encouragement from the staff than persuaded me early on that it was worth sticking with. There have been quite a few departures as well following some changes in senior management. I hope they manage their way through this because a) they deserve to, and b) they have a fabulous product.

[sisch]

On the downside, I am a bit worried about what is happening at ShortFuze. The SF staff have a much lower profile on the Moviestorm forums than they used to - and it was the friendliness, rapid answers to support questions, and the encouragement from the staff than persuaded me early on that it was worth sticking with. There have been quite a few departures as well following some changes in senior management. I hope they manage their way through this because a) they deserve to, and b) they have a fabulous product.

Yeah, I'm worried about that, too, Ice - I was just too afraid to voice it.... the staff seems to shrink all the time at the moment, and it has me greatly worried and wondering.
I just hope very much that they're not out of money... I think they're on the right track with MS, and personally would feel devastated if they had to give up now.
I'm keeping everything crossed here..... :(

[IceAxe]

Well, there was obviously a few waves created recently. I hope the new guy does well, but compared to his predecessor he is invisible. But perhaps he's out there doing other stuff that needs to be done, but is not immediately noticable by us... I really hope so.

[Jake]

It mostly sounds to me that the movies win because what if u want to create a movie about a dog and his owner. (I said if:laugh:) U cant even create a simple movie like that on Moviestorm although Moviestorm seems like an interesting game to have. :)


Jake:santa:

[bongo]

Yeah, I'm worried about that, too, Ice - I was just too afraid to voice it.... the staff seems to shrink all the time at the moment, and it has me greatly worried and wondering.
I just hope very much that they're not out of money... I think they're on the right track with MS, and personally would feel devastated if they had to give up now.
I'm keeping everything crossed here..... :(

Don't worry. Jeff is an axeman, I'm sure of it. (Comments like '...it made me smile' in a movie review can be quite revealing if you think about it.) He's there to cut the fat out, cuz it needs cutting. I donno who decided to make a freakin building addon, talk about the MOST redundant choice to make - what with Sketchup & Google warehouse & all the buildings Lucinda's modded, not to mention 3dTree's cars, to choose from for free... just what the hell were they thinking?
I took an educated guess at Jeff's email addy & sent him an email, asking him to make a deal with modders & cut his production staff back. I donno if he even got it, though it hasn't returned as undeliverable. I have a kickass building mod in my latest flick, "Garn', but I don't wantr to load it up cuz I want Moviestorm to make some money. Seriously, they need it, and I don't want to take away from them.

On the upside, they were / are hiring, it sounds like a new guy wanting new blood, and I think he's right - they need some new blood.

Modder blood!
Moohoohah hah hah

[Daninsky]

In theory, I love the business model they have in place but not sure how it will play out. The sketchup importer sounds like it goes against the revenue generating concept they have. If the software is free and then they give a tool that deters people from buying the only thing that financially supports it then how does it continue to thrive?

I don't know, look at DAZ3D it's virtually the same concept.
You get the program for free and you get your weekly freebie, and if you invest a little time in searching the net you can (now with the version 4 models) virtually live on freebies solely long as you don't expect anything too fancy.
And they still seem to make enough to be able to live from it.

You have to see that the basic costs are much lower because you don't need costly supply lines, all works via download so you only need a good server, plainly said.



However, I never got that Camera system they used (that probably changed with the new version, can't be bothered to install it) but I liked the idea how they allow you to customize the premade animations to your needs in a more flexible way than The Movies uses.

[sisch]

Don't worry. Jeff is an axeman, I'm sure of it. (Comments like '...it made me smile' in a movie review can be quite revealing if you think about it.) He's there to cut the fat out, cuz it needs cutting. I donno who decided to make a freakin building addon, talk about the MOST redundant choice to make - what with Sketchup & Google warehouse & all the buildings Lucinda's modded, not to mention 3dTree's cars, to choose from for free... just what the hell were they thinking?
I took an educated guess at Jeff's email addy & sent him an email, asking him to make a deal with modders & cut his production staff back. I donno if he even got it, though it hasn't returned as undeliverable. I have a kickass building mod in my latest flick, "Garn', but I don't wantr to load it up cuz I want Moviestorm to make some money. Seriously, they need it, and I don't want to take away from them.

On the upside, they were / are hiring, it sounds like a new guy wanting new blood, and I think he's right - they need some new blood.

Modder blood!
Moohoohah hah hah

Hm, I dunno, Bongo - I for one appreciate the buildings, the streets and the cars, because (no offense) I think they look much better than anything from sketchup I have seen imported yet (I'm saying "yet" here because I don't have seen the ones you modded). Don't forget that there's a lot of people like me who don't have the patience (or the ability) to go that much into modding - I think they need to offer at least a limited stock of those things.

Personally I would prefer it if they concentrated most on characters (we absolutely need an equivalent to Starmaker) and loads of gestures and character animations, but that might just be me. I think that would make them more money than anything else, too.

[bongo]

Hm, I dunno, Bongo - I for one appreciate the buildings, the streets and the cars, because (no offense) I think they look much better than anything from sketchup I have seen imported yet (I'm saying "yet" here because I don't have seen the ones you modded). Don't forget that there's a lot of people like me who don't have the patience (or the ability) to go that much into modding - I think they need to offer at least a limited stock of those things.

Personally I would prefer it if they concentrated most on characters (we absolutely need an equivalent to Starmaker) and loads of gestures and character animations, but that might just be me. I think that would make them more money than anything else, too.

Well we're on the same page, they desperately need a Starmaker or many more character models, the buildings & cars are redundant, even if they look good.
Did you buy the package? Can you post a demo movie if you did? Show everything off if you can. I would really appreciate that, I'm surprised they didn't make a demo movie to promote the pack.

[sisch]

Did you buy the package? Can you post a demo movie if you did? Show everything off if you can. I would really appreciate that, I'm surprised they didn't make a demo movie to promote the pack.

Yeah, I did buy it - I have everyone of their packs - and I like it very much, but don't have the time to make a demo. I'm too deep into The Afflicted right now... and have too little time to devote to that.

You could watch this (http://www.facebook.com/reqs.php#/video/video.php?v=50715896844&oid=2937122681) and this (http://www.facebook.com/reqs.php#/video/video.php?v=50123131844&oid=2937122681) to give you an idea though... hope the links work for you, the movies are on facebook, but should be on the Moviestorm site, too!

[bongo]

Yeah, I did buy it - I have everyone of their packs - and I like it very much, but don't have the time to make a demo. I'm too deep into The Afflicted right now... and have too little time to devote to that.

You could watch this (http://www.facebook.com/reqs.php#/video/video.php?v=50715896844&oid=2937122681) and this (http://www.facebook.com/reqs.php#/video/video.php?v=50123131844&oid=2937122681) to give you an idea though... hope the links work for you, the movies are on facebook, but should be on the Moviestorm site, too!

Oh, yes I saw those on the MS site before... didn't know they were demos by MS, I thought they were mods by someone. I reiterate my original point - wtf were they thinking? Oh well. Hope Jeff kicks butt.

[Lizard]

I don't know, look at DAZ3D it's virtually the same concept.
You get the program for free and you get your weekly freebie, and if you invest a little time in searching the net you can (now with the version 4 models) virtually live on freebies solely long as you don't expect anything too fancy.
And they still seem to make enough to be able to live from it.

Well... perhaps similar but not practically the same. Moviestorm content does not appeal to anyone else other than those using Moviestorm. It is proprietary content. The content of the DAZ site is usable by several programs from Bryce, Poser, Carrara and several others. The audience is much larger than that of MS and they reap the benefits of that I am sure. I think most people if given the opportunity to get free content from Google Warehouse or pay 10 pounds for a content pack, will go to Google 9 out of 10. You can find just about anything there. This is why I feel the release of such a tool is potentially dangerous for them. Of course, good for the end user. I truly hope it isn't the case. I hope the future content packs will focus on the the things 3D models can't solve like animations, gestures, clothes, hairstyles, body shapes and faces. They go in this direction, I think they may end up with a healthier plan.

[IceAxe]

The ability to import from Google warehouse is an interesting one - I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall when they discussed it at Moviestorm.
One the one hand it might seem like a strategic error because it cannibalises potential revenue from content packs... but on the other it can relieve some pressure for static prop creation, leaving the MS team to focus on animated props, gestures et al.
For the movie I'm working on it has been hugely valuable - I've sourced typewriters, gramophones, clocks, and great architecture (with creator's permission) that simply wasn't available from Moviestorm.
One additional point - for those who don't have the modder's licence for Moviestorm and haven't experienced the Sketchup import process, it's not exactly seemless, and it requires the patience of an angel because it is very slow to convert into a Moviestorm prop.
I'm glad we have the sketchup importer though, and I hope Shortfuze benefits.

[Daninsky]

I think most people if given the opportunity to get free content from Google Warehouse or pay 10 pounds for a content pack, will go to Google 9 out of 10. You can find just about anything there. This is why I feel the release of such a tool is potentially dangerous for them.
I must admit that for lack of need I never looked into that warehouse so I have no clue what quality they have, however I think you regard it too much from a seasoned viewpoint.
You will always have people that either can't or have no inclination to spend a lot of time on content search, not to mention that it simply would look odd to the casual customer not to offer bare necessities (after all, as said, you have no costs from them beyond the inital programming).
So I would think that prop packs, long as you keep them reasonable priced, while not being the bread & butter are essential to interest customers in your product.
And there's still the quality question, if those props are of a quality that is not readily rivaled by other online content their production is certainly validated.

The importance her, I'd say, is to strike the perfect balance between providing content for the seasoned user as well as for the casual customer that is just looking for a relaxing not overly expensive hobby.