The Best Tool for Machinima

[jerryshoot]

The following thoughts have been scrambling around in my mind and bumping into each other for a while now, so I figure I must express them to the fine people in this forum, in order to move on with my life.
In my humble opinion [ no irony intended] "The Movies" provides the most powerful machinima tool to date. OK- so before anyone gets offended I'd like to elaborate.
This is a matter of experience and opinion, which I won't bother to go into detail. Simply stated, of all the great movies that we can produce there is simply a no quicker "from thought to experience" tool available to us. With the addition of Freecam and Blue/green screen there is absolutely no limit to what can be produced. Can this tool be enhanced-Yes!!. With the available mods, external editors and external effects generators we can be fully realized producers of machinima- which I believe is why The Movies was produced.
Having said this The Movies has one fatal flaw for anyone who ultimately wants to produce commercial products- you can't. But if maintaining amateur status suits your needs then there is nothing more you could ask for.
Now-why the purpose of this rant? For those of you who are satisfied with being, at most, a brilliant and gifted amateur then seek no further than The Movies.
For those of you who wish to aspire to a professional level, then Moviestorm and Iclone provide excellent tools to accomplish this. But be advised, though this goal be most noble [again no irony intended], you will to face 100's of hours of learning and trial and error, the thrills of victory, the agonies of defeat.
So the purpose of this uncontrolled rant is to warn you, that it's all worth it, if you want to become a pro. It is not worth the vast expenditure of moneys, and hours if you don't.
For Iclone and Moviestorm aficionados, the moment you extract media from other games or any copy protected material you have lost the one advantage that these tools provide; namely full intellectual rights. If you proceed with these tools with only amateur-limited intentions, I feel, you must ask yourself, is it worth the time to learn these apps and lose the advantage they provide.
Whatever your answer is I'll respect. The purpose of this uncharacteristic and passionate submission is simply to bring the question to you, so that you can consider before proceeding.
There, I think I said it all and hope I didn't get any one you :)

With Love and very best wishes,

...jerry

[kuroken]

Hey Jerry -

Read this before I left work and had some time to think about this on the drive home.

I approach this without brand loyalty - I used The Movies actively for two years, and have had iClone for about a year. They're tools. That's all. Like a word processor or a graphics program. So I have about as much loyalty to Lionhead or Reallusion as I do to Microsoft or Adobe. Which ain't much. Somebody comes up with something that better meets my needs, I'm gone.

With that said....

I agree that The Movies can give you the fastest "concept to execuation" speed, but only if you set your bar very, very low. I know the least amount of time I spent on a movie with The Movies was for my occasional short comedies - and that was 20-30 hours to shoot and edit. My most successful The Movies film, A Split Second, took me maybe 50 hours. All of the rest, from Awakening Chapter 1 to the last Last Rites film, Amen, took me 100+ hours for each, often much more.

But let's not even talk about me. How about Sisch. Her final movie done with The Movies was The Intermediate, I believe. How long do you think it took her to make that? 100 hours? 200 hours? I know it took her months. D.L. Watson's Grey People - how long? I'd be surprised if it was less than 200+ hours, based on all of the extra stuff he added with 3D modeling and post production/editing. Killian? Uber? They spend hundreds of hours on their The Movies movies.

So yeah, man walks into a bar, orders a drink, guy walks by and slips on a banana peel, everybody laughs - can have that little flick done in under an hour. Take me maybe that long in iClone. Probably take a MovieStormer about that long in MovieStorm.

How long did Sisch and D.L. and Killian and Uber and all the other "serious" filmmakers who work/worked in The Movies take to learn the software, learn how to get their vision on screen. so they could make those great movies they turn out? Probably longer than it took Sisch to learn MovieStorm and make Saving Grace. Or Lizard to learn iClone and make Coming Home.

It's not about the software. It's about the creative vision, and how long it takes to get your creative vision on screen. Some can do it in The Movies. Others cannot. Could Saving Grace or Coming Home have been made in The Movies? Not just the telling of that story, but the actual movie, without a whole lot of compromise? How about IceAxe's Clockwork?

Speed isn't the issue. Functionality and the ability to tell your story the way you want to tell it is what it's all about.

The other issue you brought up was the amateur vs. professional thing. I don't know anyone in this community, and I know of relatively few in either the MS or iClone communities who imagine that their machinima epics are something that will bring them fame and fortune. I know some who use this medium as a testing ground for concepts, a learning tool to get them in that movie-making groove before they make the leap to live action. But those who think what we're doing with our consumer-grade machinima tools will hold up against the professional-grade tools used in the "real world" are few and far between. 3D modeling, yes. Editiing and music composition software, yes. The Movies, MovieStorm, iClone? Not so much.

Nearly all of us are hobbyists. Some are serious hobbyists, anxious to bring our creative vision to life and share it through machinima, and willing to spend the money or take the time to achieve that. Others are just here for the creative outlet, the fun, and hanging out with people with a similar interest.

And at the end of the day, as I continue to preach, it doesn't matter what software you're using - you can make an outstanding film with each of those packages - I've mentioned some of the many filmmakers who've proved that. But you can't do it fast, and all things considered, you're probably, at best, going to impress a bunch of people and feel good seeing your vision made real.

Ken

[geoff-uk]

Well I use The Movies. Sometimes use Moviestorm and The Sims 2. 3D Movie Maker is one I owned, although I recently downloaded a free version, but days later I didn't care much, so I uninstalled it and decided I should stick to TM. iClone is a good looking tool for machinima, but you have to pay for it, so I'll just skip it. Another one is Antics3D, which is another great looking tool for machinma, but recently the site has said that it is not going to offer any more free versions of the program, and thats just a shame.

[sisch]

I'm probably the wrong person to answer this - but time has never been an issue for me. I want my films to be the best that I'm able to do at that point of time - regardless of how much time I have to spend learning things to reach that goal, and of how much time I actually need to make the film.

On the contrary - learning new things has always been a driving force for making movies for me. I by no means think that I learned to manipulate The Movies as much as it can be manipulated - I just decided that for me, it was time to move on. I was dissatisfied with the influence I had on facial expressions and fine tuning movement, because these are the things most important for the style of films I make. And though Moviestorm has a learning curve, by no means did it take me 100 hours. And even if - so what? I have fun experimenting and discovering new things!

I don't think time spent on learning something is ever wasted, regardless of if you do it just for you, or of making one day money out of it.
And it might sound like a platitude, but the time spent on achieving your goal - making a good movie, learning new things in the process, even agonising about it - is as important as the movie itself. :)

[Killian]

I have to heartily disagree with the "amateur vs pro" argument (and, to be honest, the whole "which program is best?" thing); what it boils down to, in my opinion, is a case of "can the software I use do what I want it to do satisfactorily for ME?"

For some, The Movies is perfectly adequate (and with the extensive modding capabilities, will be so for some time yet); balance this out by the limitations of the engine, the available animations and almost guaranteed requirement to use an outside editor to get the most out of the calibre of scripting and acting that has appeared over the last year or so and yes; The Movies is long in the tooth, but it ain't done yet (one look at JosephKw's SOI should tell anyone that!).

MS and iClone are coming along in leaps and bounds; good engines, good support, ability to use different animations, etc. Again, for some, they aren't necessarily quite "there" yet in certain areas, and the limitations of the available content and awkwardness of modding (for MS at the moment) and the prohibitive cost for the "required tools" (iClone) puts some folk off using them at the present moment; that's fine if you fall into that camp. You're no more right or wrong, "pro" or "amateur" than the next guy or gal...

As with everything, the harder you work, the better the end product becomes. This is true of EVERY tool used to make machinima, not matter what it may be.

Also important for some directors is the "look"; some people just don't like home The Movies/MS/IClone look; that's great. Use what you want, what does the job for YOU.

You want freedom? Very difficult without major chromakeying in The Movies, but a lot easier in MS/IC.

You want ease? For general use, TM wins pretty much hands down.

You want to make a good movie? Well, let's be frank; it doesn't matter a jot WHAT you use, so long as the script is good, the actors are good, the visuals suit the piece, you took care and time with it and (most importantly) you enjoyed the process.

What it really comes down to at the end of the day is: "I want to be able to do XYZ; which program allows me to do that?" TM can, MS can, IC can; it just needs varying amounts of work to get it to look how you want it, dependant on a) what you're using, b) how you're using it and c) how well you get on with it. Some people will take to TM/MS/IC like ducks to water; others will struggle with one or more of them; some won't like how TM/MS/IC looks; that's great... use one of the ones YOU want to use.

So, no; it's not about how "pro" or "amateur" it is; it's about "what suits me best as a hobbyist film maker?" when all's said and done.

And remember; a crap movie is a crap movie, whether it's made with TM, MS, IC or anything else. It's down to how much effort you are willing to put into your project, at the end of the day.

You spend the amount of time you want to spend creating what you want to create, and you use the best tool that you can to create that vision you have; that's really what it's all about, from my point of view.

[Dulci]

Is it worth the time & money to pursue something I enjoy doing and that challenges me mentally, emotionally, creatively?
Yes.

Best tool for machinima?
Your imagination.