The evils of Capitalism!

[Roger]

I don't actually hate capitalism, but I do hate greed in business. When profit is put above people, or when you are ripped off and sold bad services.

What experiences have you guys had?

[Killian]

Unfortunately, I think it's a sign of 21st century living; rampant capitalism is starting to sneak into every nook and cranny of everyday life, these days...

As you mentioned on the show, salespeople now pretty much earn their bonuses from flogging un-needed and unwanted extra insurance...

And the lastability of things these days (segue there, but bear with me)... I remember my dear old mum having a twin-tub (an old washing machine with (wait for it) two tubs) which she finally got shut of after many years of trouble-free use for an automatic.

18 months go by; automatic goes "poof". Repairman comes in and fixes it. Asks her how long she's had it; she tells him.

"Jesus, Mrs..." says the repair geezer, "18 months? You've done well out of that then; they've usually keeled over and died by now..."

So, yes; things aren't built to last these days (another excuse to peel our hard earned cash out of our tight little fists); everything seems to be designed to break in a very short time, to make us have to go out and buy a replacement... media pressure making everyone feel they "have" to have the next best thing (even if what they have is perfectly adequate for the job)... oooo don't get me started.... :)

[wackyal3000]

Main cause of it in this country? Magie!

Just a quick question Roger, do you prefer capatalism or socialism (not communism)?

[Roger]

Main cause of it in this country? Maggie!

Just a quick question Roger, do you prefer capitalism or socialism (not communism)?
I like a combination of both. Social Democratic capitalism. :cowboy:

But I detest predatory capitalism! :nono:

[Chris62]

I like a combination of both. Social Democratic capitalism. :cowboy:

But I detest predatory capitalism! :nono:

I agree roger you most have both.
Right now we have a cowboy who has never been poor or done with out.

[Roger]

I have been with money, I have been without.

I have been out of work, and run my own business. I have even been a company director.

I can say that I understand both sides of capitalism. Business needs to make a profit, but it can do it in a morally correct way. I consider many business practises to be little different from the way organised crime works. I mean this in the way that the affects on people is not taken into consideration.

[riott007]

The american health care "business"

[BiggsTrek]

The american health care "business"

It's disgusting.

:nuke:

[Roger]

I have heard so many horror stories about the U.S. health care system. Where people haven't been able to get treatment, or they have had to choose between medicine and food. One of Alex's got hit by a $40k hospital bill for 3 days in hospital after her insurance company decided (after the fact) that she wasn't covered for that procedure. She had to re mortgage her house.

I have heard it said that many older Americans are one illness away from becoming homeless.

Alex is on over 20 different tablets a day plus other treatments. When she lived in the States, she could only afford one of them.

I know that they charge over the top for medicines. Alex was in hospital about 15 years ago, and she was charged $9 an aspirin.

Barack Obama's speech the other night he told of his cancer ridden mother fighting with insurance representatives from her death bed. To me that is so wrong. People who are dying should be treated with dignity and respect.

To my mind it is a terrible thing to be ill, but it is far worse when you have to worry about money on top of it.

Over here our health system has it's faults. But the main thing is that it is free to all. There is a prescription charge for taxpayers of about $10 I think. But if you are on welfare you don't even pay that.

There are no hospital or doctor's fees. Although if you want to have a better quality private treatment, it is available.

Most importantly, regardless of how poor you are, you will still be treated, and as well as the next person.

Take my own situation as an example:

Alex is disabled and I care for her full time. Which I am paid to do. It's not much, but on top of Alex's disability, we do ok. Plus not to forget my yearly grants.

Our medicine, dental, and medical is all free.

All our disabled equipment including Wheelchair, electric armchair and electric £15,000 hospital bed, has all been free.

We both are home studying University degrees, for free.

We have a brand new car every 3 years, which is deducted form our welfare. But tax, insurance, breakdown recovery, and all maintenance and repairs, is free.

We live in an apartment, rent free.

We have a local tax that we are exempted from.

I get to go on courses and days out, there are many things similar for Alex if she wants to do them.

As I already said, the system is not perfect by a long way. But in my opinion, if we had lived in America, which we very nearly did, we would not be so well off as we are now.

We pay a tax here called National Insurance which if I remember correctly is around about 11% which pays for the health service. I personally think it is worth every penny.

Or do you guys see it differently?

[Killian]

...serious danger of derailment of your own topic 'ere, Roger :) Maybe start another about the pros and cons of the NHS and the comparison of the "two tier health system" with that of other countries.

I have, however, heard the horror stories of ambulance crews refusing to treat injured parties in the US unless the "patient" had a displayed the means to pay the bill beforehand.

Of course, whether this is true or an urban myth, it does show the down-side of capitalism; make a buck off your customers... if they can't or won't buy your product, don't cater to them... slightly more serious in the above example than a pair of pants or a burger, admittedly, but the principle's the same, I feel...)

I have a friend who studied for an age to get medically qualified; he was genuinely interested in making a difference to people's quality of life. His worst moment, he recounted, was the point when a visiting consultant asked the group of students what they wanted to do once they qualified... and the overwhelming majority all said they wanted to go into private practice "because that's where the money is..."

...and don't even get me started on dentists...

[Roger]

...serious danger of derailment of your own topic 'ere, Roger :)
Don't worry, we are allowed to do that on these forums. Start in one place and wander where we will. Just as well considering I am famous for going :offtopic: ! :001_tt2:

Btw good post! :)

[Elbow]

100% free health care?
For people that abuse themselves?

I think that freedom is the lack of force. Each time we give something away to someone, someone else pays for it. It's a tough call to balance individual rights with the collective rights of all.

Totally free education through University offers a lot of promise, in that educated people have more job opportunities, which in turn betters their health care coverage.

The hope of a future inspires people to take better care of themselves. This also reduces the need for treating people with little or no hope that might resort to drugs, food, smoking, alcohol to escape their lives.

I think if the U.S. had 100% free education for all. many health issues would fade. At this point, I think we could better care for those that can't make it on their own.

The government isn't the only one to blame. We've made heroes out of the wrong people. Teachers, Scientist, Inventors, Artists-Writers-Musicians etc. should be our heroes, not Actors, Politicians and Sports players.

I believe that fundamentally, capitalism is a good thing. It's that we've allowed it to be perverted so it's the measure of success that's the bad thing.

[Roger]

A thought going around my mind recently is "what about when capitalism goes wrong?"

I'm thinking of all the financial institutions that are collapsing recently. They are a thing we usually regard as safe. So what went wrong?

Unfortunately it seems to me as if the biggest weakness of capitalism has been exposed.....

.....Greed!


Good post elbow!

Free health care doesn't just help those who abuse themselves. It helps those who can not help themselves. But it also helps those who have a good education and good jobs. Because when a health issue arises, it doesn't cripple them financially.

Take a few scenarios:

A well educated man with a god job of about 40 years old, has a heart attack. During his illness, his medical is free, and he gets financial aid from the government. By the time he is able to work again, he is in a position where he hasn't got to climb very far back up the ladder to get where he was before.

A couple have worked hard all their lives, run their own business and saved a nest egg for their retirement. As their years advance they have different illnesses. With free medical their nest egg is untouched. This means that they can still enjoy the retirement that they worked so hard for.

A family, Mum and Dad are working hard, so they can give the children a better future. One of the children falls seriously ill and has to spend a lot of time in hospital. Free medical means that the illness of one child, does not affect the prospects of the rest of the children in the family because of financial burden.

I am aware that by having medical insurance that these things are not as much of a problem. But consider how expensive medical insurance is, and how many people are borderline when it comes to affording it.

I should add that in the UK medical insurance and private health care is available to those who want it. Those who can afford it have a choice, those who can't afford it are still covered.

The thing with a welfare state is, that it does help people who probably don't deserve it, but more importantly it helps those who do.

[Elbow]

A thought going around my mind recently is "what about when capitalism goes wrong?"

Free health care doesn't just help those who abuse themselves. It helps those who can not help themselves.

But it also helps those who have a good education and good jobs. Because when a health issue arises, it doesn't cripple them financially.

A couple I know, paid over the year their $7,000.00 deductible and he was covered for his $40,000.00 surgery.

This shows me three things:

1) The malpractice insurance and surgery suite / staff are driven up by a litigious society (greed); 2) the greed of the hospital administrators. Even non-profit hospital admins. want larger and larger salaries. 3) Doctors want large salaries to pay for that insurance and their educations that cost so much as well as any personal wealth desires they carry with them.

Here again, I think free education goes a long way to resolve these three issues.

Politicians talk about limiting the claims of malpractice but haven't done much on it.

I'm afraid that when it comes to greed, Pandor's box has been open for a long time and getting people back to a sense of reason will be very tough.


I should add that in the UK medical insurance and private health care is available to those who want it. Those who can afford it have a choice, those who can't afford it are still covered.

How does this work? those that pay get what kind of services that differ from those that can't?


The thing with a welfare state is, that it does help people who probably don't deserve it, but more importantly it helps those who do.

Always better to guard against depriving the deserving even if it means some get more than they might rightly deserve.

[Roger]

A couple I know, paid over the year their $7,000.00 deductible and he was covered for his $40,000.00 surgery.

This shows me three things:

1) The malpractice insurance and surgery suite / staff are driven up by a litigious society (greed); 2) the greed of the hospital administrators. Even non-profit hospital admins. want larger and larger salaries. 3) Doctors want large salaries to pay for that insurance and their educations that cost so much as well as any personal wealth desires they carry with them.

Here again, I think free education goes a long way to resolve these three issues.

Politicians talk about limiting the claims of malpractice but haven't done much on it.

I'm afraid that when it comes to greed, Pandora's box has been open for a long time and getting people back to a sense of reason will be very tough.



How does this work? those that pay get what kind of services that differ from those that can't?



Always better to guard against depriving the deserving even if it means some get more than they might rightly deserve.
Generally private medical means that you get seen quicker and get a private room which is more like a hotel than a hospital.

NHS hospitals do have single rooms, but most people share an 8 bed ward.

It seems that the greed that many businesses had a feeding frenzy on, is coming back to bite them in the ass. Lehman Brothers etc.

The possibility that AIG is in risk of collapsing is a very scary proposition.

Pandora's box was opened. It may not be possible to close it, but damage limitation is most certainly needed.

It makes me wonder about the Republican message of: Give money to big business and it will trickle down. It seems to me that big business got greedy and wanted the trickle down as well. So instead of big business helping everyone as the Republicans said it would, it has put people out of work, and put them in risk of losing their homes too.

If business had acted responsibly as we were told it would do, then everyone would have benefited.

If business is to be trusted to improve the wealth of the masses, then it needs to do much better than it has recently.

Btw, I agree that good education is essential to improving any nation. I am fortunate enough to be able to home study a degree for free at this time. I am on year 1 of about 6 years.