Pushing the envelope

[kranyak]

Are there any real restrictions for our movies on TMU? Or can we go crazy and just post our movies as R-rated as we want them to be?

On a side note, and I'm sorry if this doesn't directly relate to TMU, has Lionhead been known to remove movies from TMO due to excessive profanity? I've read their Terms of Use, and it doesn't mention profanity, merely a vague "objectionable material." I don't mean to give the impression that I have an infatuation with profanity, but I'm currently making a Western, and, well, I feel more or less obligated to incorporate a generous amount of profanity, and I'd like to upload it on both TMO and TMU.

[Killian]

First off, welcome to TMU :001_smile:

To answer your questions in no particular order (but the order they were posted in seems fine), there is a fine line between one person's acceptance and another's revulsion.

In terms of acceptance, so long as you flag the movie as 18+, I can't really think there would be any problem with it, to be honest (although "excessive profanity" to the detriment of the actual movie would probably not be a wise way to go :)); I'm sure Ken will say so if that's not the case. There are a fair few films up which contain "bad language" of various degrees, so it really depends on how far you want to "push it", I would say.

As for profanity on TMO... to be honest, I reckon anything harsher than the simplest word would probably end up getting your movie pulled, so IMO I wouldn't risk it. I could be wrong, tho; I never uploaded anything there so can't say how strict the mods are, but I'm sure some of the other guys can give you an idea :wink:

[Sparky]

Its all about 'good taste' and 'appropriateness'. Don't have questionable material in your movies just for the sake of having it.

cheers

[thebiz]

As far as TMO goes your movie will/might be pulled for copyright infringement, nudity and films of a derogatory nature toward race or sex......generally. You might get pulled if you put a curse word in the title but not so much if you curse in the movie itself. Use common sense and realize that the moderator is generally not going to go beyong the title, thumbnail/poster of your film unless someone reports it and most reports about cursing go blowing into the ether unless accompanied by claims of copyright infringement, nudity, racism or sexism.

I ran into an issue where someone got upset over me using the word fuck in a movie and apparently multiple people reported it but nothing came of this as it wasnt any of those things they care about. Huzzah.

As for here...others (KEN) is better to tell ya than I...

[kranyak]

First off, welcome to TMU :001_smile:
...
In terms of acceptance, so long as you flag the movie as 18+, I can't really think there would be any problem with it, to be honest (although "excessive profanity" to the detriment of the actual movie would probably not be a wise way to go :))...

Thanks!


Don't have questionable material in your movies just for the sake of having it.

Wouldn't dream of it. :censored:


Use common sense and realize that the moderator is generally not going to go beyong the title, thumbnail/poster of your film unless someone reports it and most reports about cursing go blowing into the ether...

Good point.

Thanks everyone.

[Elbow]

In my profession, when I present a work for a client's review I'm always prepared to justify why I did it this way or that; what is it supposed to mean and what's the intended result.
Answer this for yourself about your film and you'll avoid doing something for no real reason.

This goes along the lines of Sparky's post. If there's a reason and the point can't be made, in this case, without using certain language, then there's justification. Depicting your story as true to life or paraphrased or as a parody rests in the creator's hands and will be judged a good choice or bad by the viewers.

[A_N_D]

I'm one of the lackeys...

but here are some simple guidelines (for the forums and the film site).

The rules here are simple: You can discuss whatever you like (in the appropriate forum), you can disagree with other members, you can argue with other members - but keep it civil and keep it relatively non-profane. Act like adults (even if you're not quite there) and you'll be treated as an adult.

Our promise to you is that we'll run [the place] as fairly as is humanly possible - All of our moderators know that the guiding principle here is fairness - what's good for one is good for all, and what's not good for one is not good for any. It's not about who you are, or who you know, it's about how you act.

At this time, it is a safe bet that anything graphically sexual (there are kids here, after all, who may not always follow the 18+ rule, and we should try to be considerate) will come to the moderators' attention, be evaluated on a case by case basis, and generate some weighty discussion, to say the least. By graphic, I mean genitalia, penetration, or any other graphic sexual act.

A little nudity, well... The moderators are currently discussing some boundaries (that we hoped people wouldn't push us to defining), but suffice it to say that graphic sexuality is a pretty damned sure no-no.

You want to curse, fine. If you want to fill your film with curse words from end to end, please place it somewhere where impressionable youngsters don't have to be exposed to it (and keep in mind that this type of film will make you look like an idiot).

The moderators will let folks know when things go "over the line" (which doesn't make it anyone's obligation to "push the envelope", by the way). In the meanwhile, show dignity, self-respect, artistic integrity, and decency, and everyone should get along great.


A_N_D

[Dulci]

Some very reasonable responses here.

I'll simply add... Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.


Do you have a studio on TMO already? I'm trying to place your name and failing miserably. Welcome to our little community :1:

[thebiz]

I'll simply add... Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.



Its all about 'good taste' and 'appropriateness'. Don't have questionable material in your movies just for the sake of having it.


In the spirit of discussion I will somewhat disagree with these posts (Well, to Dulci's post I would simply add, "It doesnt mean you shouldn't either"). While this (TMU) may or may not be the place to truly push the borders of what some might consider "good taste" and "appropriateness", there is and probably should be a place to do so. Sometimes pushing these borders helps us to consider what those very borders mean (in a societal and personal sense)and how they were constructed in the first place. I'm thinking about Robert Maplethorpe or early John Waters, Lydia Lunch... ect on this occasion. One persons idea of good/bad taste becomes another persons statement about who we are and why we are.

Yes, we all have our own borders and often for good reason. Further, those in the private sector are free to impose their own choice of restriction based upon this (TMO or Ken for example) but I personally hate to see the words "good taste" used to imply the whims of a silent majority - and actually just hate the term "good taste" flat out.

And yes, this delves outside the realm of the original post (which hopefully has been fully answered) but what the hey, I think its an interesting discussion perhaps...

[Jase180]

I would consider TMU like cable tv if TMO was network TV.

dont put limits on the creative, but dont push the edge just to see how far you can go

[Norrie]

Couldn't agree more Biz.

When I see words and phrases like "good taste", "appropriateness", and "questionable material" it worries me. They're judgement calls, and therefore everyone is going to have differing opinions.

It's the slippery slope LH fell into when they started removing movies because of flagging.

People, whether they know it or not, have prejudices and ulterior motives. Just because the masses think it, it doesn't mean they're right (more often the reverse).

A_N_D, as always, put it far more eloquently than I could:

DIGNITY. RESPECT. INTEGRITY.

[6hm]

Nothing ever changes if everyone always plays safe


and personally i dont think profanity is pushing the envelope or anywhere near the edge... but what do i know

[riott007]

reading this thread this morning...I had a feeling it was my movie being discussed. It's since been removed.

[Jase180]

reading this thread this morning...I had a feeling it was my movie being discussed. It's since been removed.

Naw, Im pretty sure this thread came about before you released it. The OP was looking for feedback on his projects and what was too much etc

[Norrie]

Naw, Im pretty sure this thread came about before you released it. The OP was looking for feedback on his projects and what was too much etc

Nope. After. Just after.

[6hm]

reading this thread this morning...I had a feeling it was my movie being discussed. It's since been removed.

and next is TMU going to mysteriously crash?

[Norrie]

and next is TMU going to mysteriously crash?

I think that would be preceded by a large outburst about the totally homophobic and slanderous movie about two stalwarts of TMO.

http://www.tmunderground.com/watch/5c2ee1b74de72dc03c14/It's-A-Bloody-Wonderful-Life

Odd, isn't it, that this had all sorts of things the prudish would object to, but nary a word was said :)

Go watch it kids: filthify your tender minds :o

[riott007]

I noticed AND said that the moderators were discussing sexuality and the limits..which was posted after my movie was released. I'm assuming possibly that my movie sparked this discussion. I'm hoping I am wrong and maybe y'all were talking about another movie or just discussing it in general.

[thebiz]

I figured AND was referring to your flick as well, though Im not sure why that would be a bad thing (his implication seemed to be that it was decision the moderators did not want to have to make..and I suppose I dont blame them) nor why you wouldnt expect it to generate some discussion from moderators and viewers alike. It obviously pushed some boundaries which will generate discussion and therein is some of the merit of pushing boundaries for that sake alone - to generate thought and discussion (this is not to say that was your sole purpose). Good times.

[Killian]

I for one thought that the footage used in riott's vid was fine; it was flagged as 18+ and wasn't by today's definition "pornographic", so can't see what the problem was, personally. I can see that it MIGHT offend some people, but then I have a much more tolerant attitude to artistic expression than others, maybe...

At the end of the day, I'm guessing that moderation of a site like this is a very awkward job, and the mods have to tread a fine line between judging what's acceptable as "artistic" and what isn't; and, they will probably be the first to say, they are only human and have to balance different viewpoints as well as they can... I'm just glad I don't have to make those decisions myself... and let's face it, the freedom we have here is certainly a lot broader than that at a certain other movie upload site I could mention...

[riott007]

Oh I wasn't saying that the moderators were discussing anything bad - I don't have a clue what was said or even if it was about my movie. I just deducted 2 from 2 reading AND's post and thought it might be mine. I don't think I was pushing any boundaries but if people thought that -then I needed to remove it. (And it has been removed) My movie was meant to be funny and it was taking the piss out of the porn industry.

I'll be the first to say I'm not an awesome movie maker - it's not my thing. I do think I have a gift for being funny. I will often say things people are too scared to say outloud. (All comedians do this) Is this pushing boundaries? Maybe...but boundaries are different from person to person.

I find a lot of stuff offensive in many (tmo) movies especially stuff regarding violence towards women. I just don't comment and move on. (That's my personal choice) Same goes for me and my movies - somebody somewhere can find something offensive in just about every single movie I have made..and often will describe this offense as "Pushing Boundaries."

Am I going to stop making movies about spanking midgets, orgasms, masturbation, power tools, farts, rubber chickens, and three boobed aliens?

NO! because I make people laugh and that's all that matters to me. C'mon...rubber chickens are funny!!

[Dulci]

In the spirit of discussion I will somewhat disagree with these posts (Well, to Dulci's post I would simply add, "It doesnt mean you shouldn't either").

Of course.

[kranyak]

Wow, I'm surprised and glad at the in-depth replies I've received. Thanks to everyone who replied. And let me reiterate: I don't consciously try to "push the envelope" (perhaps an unfortunate title for this thread then) and I don't plan on saturating my movies with "objectionable material." It's just that I can't seem to think of Western dialogue without the occasional swear word.

And by the way:


Do you have a studio on TMO already? I'm trying to place your name and failing miserably. Welcome to our little community :1:
On TMO I'm actually kranyak7; I probably should have made that my name on here as well for consistency, but oh well.

[Killian]

No worries, Kran... I'm sure by now you've realised we all enjoy a good debate about any subject matter that's relevant... and can do it pretty maturely as well, on the whole.

[kuroken]

Oh I wasn't saying that the moderators were discussing anything bad - I don't have a clue what was said or even if it was about my movie. I just deducted 2 from 2 reading AND's post and thought it might be mine. I don't think I was pushing any boundaries but if people thought that -then I needed to remove it. (And it has been removed) My movie was meant to be funny and it was taking the piss out of the porn industry.
I won't be coy about it - yes, your movie did spark a discussion, but the discussion wasn't as much about your movie specifically as about what's appropriate and what's not.

Here's the deal - we have a handful of moderators here, and the reason I asked them all to be moderators is because I respect and trust their judgement. But we're a varied group, with different views on things.

So when something comes up (on the movie site or in the forums), we discuss it as a group. Our goal, as a group, is to avoid hard and fast "thou shalts" and "though shalt nots". With some issues, we're pretty much agreed. With others, we have our differences, some minor, some major. Frankly, I wouldn't have it any other way.

But our goal is always to come to a decision that's fair for the users, without ignoring obvious concerns. As you said, everyone has different bounderies, and our job is to balance freedom with the bounderies of an international community of artistic people.

There may be isolated spots of black and white, but mostly things are gray. Hopefully through our discussions, we will always be able to find the right thing to do.

Ken

[db4321]

Welcome Kranyak.

Swearing never killed anyone. But does that mean you should use it just for sake of it? Maybe, maybe not. I swear just as much as anyone else, so who am I to judge.

At the end of the day (or even at the start of it) nobody is obliged to watch any movie. So long as your movie has a warning regarding it's content, people can make their own decision about whether to watch it.

Provided impressionable youngsters don't get to watch your film, I don't see what the problem is.