Why do people watch machinima?

[Dulci]

Wow. I just read something I so strongly disagreed with that I thought I would share it here and see what your thoughts are:

"Any game that has focused exclusively on machinima has failed for one reason—people watch machinima because it is made with game artwork they recognize and enjoy. The fun of machinima is seeing a character model that you see every day, but seeing it do something it doesn't do in the real game. The Movies, a game released a few years ago with the sole purpose of allowing the user to make a movie with video game art, is shutting down this December for just this reason. No one watched The Movies machinima. It wasn't from any real game, no one had any attachment to the characters and other artwork, and there was no built-in audience of people who could relate to it. If people want to watch an animated movie, they'll watch something that looks good—a CGI Pixar-ish movie. The only reason people watch machinima is because they relate to the game (or genre, like MMO) the movie is made with because they've played it." ( http://oxhornbrand.blogspot.com/2008/11/machinima-neglected.html )

[Killian]

"Oxhorn" is a well-known WoW machinima maker, and therefore it's not surprising that he is down on TM; I would venture to say he is one of the "machinima snobs" we mention on a semi-frequent basis (i.e., if it contains pre-prepared scenes etc, then it's not "kosher" and if you don't have to spend 4 weeks struggling to stop kids in the game running all around you and spoiling your carefully constructed "shot", you're not a "serious" machinima maker...)

[sisch]

Obviously, that guy (I think it's a he?) hasn't done his homework before writing this crap...

There are a lot of people who have an attachment to TM - and this is not only against TM, it's against any purpose made machinima tool.

Of course TM had a build-in audience - all the users who watched and rated on TMO do count... and there were not only users watching. I also strongly object against TM not looking good - okay, that might only my perception, to someone playing egoshooters, it might look comic-ish...

but he also hasn't taken into account the success TM movies have had in competitions like bitfilms etc.

Did I say crap already? Load of crap.


Another edit, because being angry, I think I misread his comment about "looking good".
But really, I watch machinima because I love to see good stories, creatively shot in a computer environment. As I don't play any of the games he mentions, I don't care at all about them. If the film amazes me, I don't care which program was used to create it.

I just think he's very wrong.

[Killian]

Obviously, that guy (I think it's a he?) hasn't done his homework before writing this crap...

Yes, he is a "he"... also I wouldn't click too deep into his blog for his feelings on other matters (Jase, beware! :P)

There are a lot of people who have an attachment to TM - and this is not only against TM, it's against any purpose made machinima tool.

Don't get me wrong; there has been some really impressive machinima made with WoW (am thinking Tales of the Past III here, in the main... a truly visual feast of WoW film-making), but the whole "us vs them" attitude a lot of the other machinima makers have towards us TM/Moviestorm/iClone/Antics3d'ers really grates on my nerves...

[michael_b6]

Most of the films I've seen made in The Movies are a hell of a lot better than the trash churned out of Halo or whatever the hell else there is. In TM you can tell a different story in a different setting every time while in others you're limited to what the game centers around.

[sisch]

Don't get me wrong; there has been some really impressive machinima made with WoW (am thinking Tales of the Past III here, in the main... a truly visual feast of WoW film-making), but the whole "us vs them" attitude a lot of the other machinima makers have towards us TM/Moviestorm/iClone/Antics3d'ers really grates on my nerves...

Hehe, I edited my comments on the look of WOW out... :p

I think this kind of attitude, the "us vs them" is hurting machinima. I don't like that attitude at all, and my fingers are itching to answer on his blog... but I'll abstain for now. :censored:

[Killian]

Most of the films I've seen made in The Movies are a hell of a lot better than the trash churned out of Halo or whatever the hell else there is. In TM you can tell a different story in a different setting every time while in others you're limited to what the game centers around.

Exactly what I was thinking... versatility is purpose-built moviemaking animation software's strong point (phew that was a mouthful!), whereas you are straight-jacketed into specific kinds of movies with video games, which takes a massive amount of work to get around (if you even can); therefore develops this elitist attitude that if you can do something "easily" (they should try struggling with TM for an hour trying to get one shot, THEN say it's easy...), it's not worth anything... which is the stupid part of the arguement, IMO.

[Sparky]

Personally, and this may throw the cat amongst the pigeons, i do not term what we do with TM software, Iclone, Moviestorm, Antics etc as machinima. We created animated movies - granted, very basic ones compaired to proffesional comanies and studies (Dreamworks for example). I don't think The Incredibles, or Monsters Inc etc would ever be classed as machinima. I think what we produce falls somewhere between the 2 - we are unique :)
Machinima is a term i associated with the 'live grab footage', which has its place no doubt, but i don't think its what we (i) do. But, thats just my interpritation of a word i guess.

cheers

[Killian]

Wikipedia (home of God like knowledge, as you are all aware...) states...


Machinima (pronounced /məˈʃiːnəmə/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English) or /məˈʃɪnəmə/), a Portmanteau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portmanteau_word) of machine cinema,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machinima#cite_note-0) is a collection of associated production techniques whereby computer-generated imagery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-generated_imagery) (CGI) is rendered (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendering_%28computer_graphics%29) using real-time, interactive 3-D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_computer_graphics) engines instead of professional 3D animation software.

...then you would be right, Sparky.

However, it could be argued (:P) that it's a tycoon game which uses a limited rendering engine to create movies as part and parcel of the tycoon aspect, which just happens to be available as a seperate aspect of the game (and, looking at what is being done with it due to talent, modders and so forth, has stretched WELL beyond the limited scope LH had for it originally).

Nit-picky, I know, but there you go :)

[sisch]

Well, Wiki calls TM a machinima tool... and Antics, MS, iClone purpose built machinima tools.

Although, of course, I don't mind us being special. We are. :)

[Sparky]

Only holds true for The Movies though Killian - the argument is dead in the water for purpose-built stuff like Iclone

cheers

[Killian]

Point conceeded there... but was trying to show some solidarity for our brothers in MS and iClone ;)

[rposhard]

And then I said:

"In all honesty, you are kind of belittling The Movies in your column unfairly. The reason Lionhead is shutting down their "movies" site is because many of us have moved on to bigger and better sites that allow us a little more freedom than what we had on the Lionhead site. The game has been massively transformed through the work of a number of modders which allows us a freedom to make new and original movies that tell real stories rather than being restricted in one universe or scenario. Plus tools like the ones found in The Movies and its expansion pack educate the users in the actual process of filmmaking, processes that can be adapted to outside editors and other video-grab applications. Though the game was deemed a failure in terms of sales, it produced a whole new generation of people who are now learning to create better movies through other formats. Believe me when I say that the only failure of The Movies was the insistence of selling it as a Sim game, instead of what it really was: a fast and easy way to learn some of the basics of machinima in combination with real filmmaking tools.

Apart for your disdain for The Movies, I felt most of the rest of what you said makes perfect sense. Macinima made with games would indeed be an effective and inexpensive way for companies to create free promotion. Pity so few of them ever figure that out."

Just felt we should be represented, in spite of the way people look down their noses at us sometimes.

[Orky]

We're basically comparing Lucky Charms with Cherios. One is marshmellow'd, artificially sweetened, and sold to us by a leprechaun, and the other is naturally made and sold to us by a talking bumble-bee. Sure, they are both classed as cereals and most people have 'em with milk, but c'mon, are they really the same? This is kind of a Jerry Fallwell VS Richard Dawkins arguement. Both sides are going to be so wrapped up into what they do, that it really never sinks into one or the other that the other guy puts a lot of effort into his work, too. Now given a lot of TMO'ers are more acceptive and "let things lay" in their personas than that, but there are some tough cookies here who would call most traditional machinima "garbage", and that shows me that really neither side would ever come to accept the others methods for creating their art. Having tried my hand at both methods, I can tell you that, largely, making movies with TMO is indeed easier, but that does not mean it should not be considered machinima or the movies we make with it any more or less respected than anything made with WoW, Halo, ect. What matters is that we are both creating something of our own, and for anyone to snub their noses at the other guy is really defeating the whole purpose of what they're doing.

Now that said - what that guy is talking about makes about as much sense as an Arabian phone book. "people watch machinima because it is made with game artwork they recognize and enjoy. " Uhm, no they don't. What that guy is talking about is a small niche-category in machinima (Red Vs Blue is really the only popular thing to come out of it). But the vast majority of machinima, be it comedic or for real, is telling a story that just happens to be using artwork from a game. People watch machinima because they want to be entertained in some fashion, just as why they watch any "real" film. With that statement, that guy prooves he is gloriously missing the point behind what he does for a hobby.

- Orky

[goofparade]

I guess for me the question is really: Why do we MAKE machinima? Why do we make our little movies?

Simple...to me.

We feel the need to create, to put ideas out there and we want poeple to see it and feel something when they do.
Sure, I could have done that before, paint, record music, even act... but now we have this tool availiable to us and a "network" to share it with others who also want to create... and I cannot imagine NOT doing it.
I find it terribly rewarding.(except monitarily)

Once you start making it, you start watching it, of course.

That's where our friend from WoW is missing the point.. it doesn't matter how it was made... but was it creative, interesting, did it provoke thought?.... did it entertain?

Who gives a rat's ass which software was used to make it?:gunsmilie:

[mollyrulz9999]

The Movies is actually more of a strategy game. the game has the tools to make movies, but by the sounds of it, he hasn't played Tycoon mode. The AMM is only 1 part of the game. :3:

I think the point of makng machinima is that the stuff in games would take thousands, possibly millions of bucks to make in real life. With machinima, we can create something epic in our own bedrooms at 1/10000000000000000000'th of the cost.

[rogerSIMIAN]

And then I said:

"In all honesty, you are kind of belittling The Movies in your column unfairly. The reason Lionhead is shutting down their "movies" site is because many of us have moved on to bigger and better sites that allow us a little more freedom than what we had on the Lionhead site. The game has been massively transformed through the work of a number of modders which allows us a freedom to make new and original movies that tell real stories rather than being restricted in one universe or scenario. Plus tools like the ones found in The Movies and its expansion pack educate the users in the actual process of filmmaking, processes that can be adapted to outside editors and other video-grab applications. Though the game was deemed a failure in terms of sales, it produced a whole new generation of people who are now learning to create better movies through other formats. Believe me when I say that the only failure of The Movies was the insistence of selling it as a Sim game, instead of what it really was: a fast and easy way to learn some of the basics of machinima in combination with real filmmaking tools.

Apart for your disdain for The Movies, I felt most of the rest of what you said makes perfect sense. Macinima made with games would indeed be an effective and inexpensive way for companies to create free promotion. Pity so few of them ever figure that out."

Just felt we should be represented, in spite of the way people look down their noses at us sometimes.

Nicely worded, RPO.

I came to Machinima and TheMovies etc 'cause it seems to me to fit snugly in with all the other low budget, underground, DIY forms of creativity / self-expression that have always interested me: zines, home recording, Indie labels, no-budget live action b-movies/arthouse, underground comix, hand-crafted art, clothing, objects etc. If I could make Machinima easily with Ratchet and Clank, SuperMario and Zelda then I might have that childlike joy at seeing games characters I know well acting out my own little stories in a puppet-like fashion but in general I'm much more impressed with Machinima that looks like it isn't made in a known games universe with stock characters. I want to be surprised by Machinima - to not quite know how the film maker made their film.