Some Tips on Shooting Movies with Outside Editing

[Killian]

Some Tips on Shooting Movies with Outside Editing

Ok, here’s a coupla tips and pieces that might be of use to people just venturing into the daunting realm of OE from TM.

#1 Don’t be afraid to shoot short
By this I mean, don’t feel that you have to cram all your shots into one long movie file (as you know, that’s where the dreaded lip sync issue starts to rear it’s ugly head); keep sequences short, which means a) less time faffing about with them, b) faster exporting, c) less chance of sound buggage. Using an OE program makes it very easy to stitch chunks of footage back together, so don’t struggle with the unwieldiness (is that a word?) of TM’s clunky editing interface when you don’t have to.

#2 Multiple Studios means less loading
Using a studio lot for each bundle of shots can ease the burden on a groaning PC; create a lot purely for a bunch of shots you’re going to need (i.e. all exteriors, all city sets, all interiors, etc), shoot the footage you need for each block of shots, export it for OE, then load up the next lot and do that block… this means you can utilise all the sets you want without having to worry about cramming every last set into a tiny space, avoids excessive use of large lot mods (which I’ve had issues with before) and doesn’t clog up your processor with unnecessary rendering of stuff you don’t need in a lot. Remember, you DON'T have to shoot stuff in sequence if you don't want to; you can shoot all your interior shots on one set at once, if you want, and cut them all back into the right place once you've exported the file and got it in your OE.

#3 Get to know your Editor…
You can learn on the fly, but that’s usually not a great idea unless you have loads of time to correct any dodgy footage or weeks to play with the damned thing beforehand! Spend some time learning what things do, where things go… what you can and can’t do in your editor before you start trying to seriously edit your magnum opus with it, or you could go belly up very quick.

#4 Pretty visuals do not a movie make
More of a caveat to newer OE “virgins” that haven’t had to struggle with TM’s interface before. Don’t assume that OE will make your movie the next best thing to sliced bread; OE can help ENHANCE a movie… it won’t make something dire into a blockbuster just by throwing in some nifty effects shots. It won’t replace a bad script, bad performances or bad editing (bad editing is bad editing, whether done in PP or Vegas/Magix, etc); you still need to have the goods there to allow OE to buff up, knock off the rough edges or get that shot you can’t get any other way.

#5 Lip Synching still is the purview of TM
Obviously, you can’t lip synch once you’ve got the file out of TM. You at least need the files in to get the synching done before you export, but don’t struggle with adding sounds and music in through PP when you can add it in afterwards.

Here’s a quick example of how I approach a shooting block using OE.

A) Using my shooting plan and the completed script, I block out the shots I want to get. I try to get several angles of the same shot (you can always cut out the ones you don’t use later), and check it carefully for set corners, scaffolding, etc before I “sign off on it”
B) Repeat Step A) until you have a coupla mins of footage completed to your satisfaction.
C) Get the movie shot as usually.
D) Take the shot film into PP and do the initial editing pass (i.e. big scene cuts (try to leave a fair bit of running “film” either side of the shot, if you can, to give you room for manoeuvre) and lip synching; DON’T do anything else to it at this stage). Remember to switch off mumbling and any background ambience tracks you don’t want on your final “reel”.
E) Export the movie at Highest (or whatever you can manage) quality.
F) I always take the exported file out of the Movies folder and stick it into a working footage folder before I start, but use whatever method works best for you (if using this approach, ALWAYS Copy the file; don’t cut and paste it into the working folder; if something goes hideously wrong, you can always start from scratch with an untouched version if needed).
G) Pop the raw footage into your editor; save it STRAIGHT AWAY with a recognisable name before you do anything else (so again you can back out of any disastrous editing errors if you need to), and remember to save OFTEN (some editors can get a tad buggy if you are handling a large file and the last thing you want is for it to crash on you after 3 hours of editing and you suddenly remembering you never saved it…).
H) THIS is the point where you do your “fine cutting”; with an OE, you can pretty much cut a frame at a time if necessary (although it will take you months if you do the whole movie this way! :P); this is a godsend, especially when handling chromakeying to stop shots bleeding over each other.
I) Once you have the second cut how you want it, you can then do some fine tuning of your volume levels on specific actors and/or scenes, add in your music (and can align it so it starts and stops exactly where you want it) and anything else you need (not going into effects shots in this post, nor green/bluescreening, but may do if people want some tips on how best to do it).
J) Save the final block again.
K) Repeat Steps A-J with each block of film you want to edit. Save each as an incremental file (i.e. Chunk 1a, Chunk1b, etc) as you go along.
L) Create a new blank editor file. Open the first completed editing file you did, copy ALL the completed chunks and files inside that edit, and paste them into your “Completed Movie” working document. Do the same with the rest of your working files, in sequence, closing the working files as you get the content out going along.
M) Once you have the whole thing in place, make sure you run through it once or twice COMPLETELY to make sure all the shots are in the right place, the sounds are ok, etc. If you are happy with it, you can then export the whole lot from this “completed” file as your finished product.

There we go; a few pointers I hope people find useful in the murky world of OE.

[db4321]

Thanks for posting this. I'm sure this will be of use to a lot of people.

[hippieking]

Thanks for posting this. I'm sure this will be of use to a lot of people.

I second that

[Killian]

Merci beaucoup, gents. I know a lot of this is stuff people who use OE will already know, but one or two pieces might be useful to folk, and for someone who has never yet known the joys of an Outside Editor, it might be handy to see the plus points of "taking the plunge".

[Carver]

Excellent tips Killian! I just recently bought Magix and messed around with it a bit, but with these tips they will certainly help me out :)

[hippieking]

Excellent tips Killian! I just recently bought Magix and messed around with it a bit, but with these tips they will certainly help me out :)

I wish I had Magix :17:

[asa.oleary123]

Thanks Killian, I might have to steal the multiple studios thing :)

[sisch]

Great tips, Killian!
I work very similar to you, but I never got on to the idea of having different studio lots - how many builduings do you have in those lots? I tend to have two beauty farms (because I always end up slimming my characters at least twice) and as little of the other buildings as possible...
I look forward to hear how you work special effects and chroma keying! :)

[Killian]

Lots-wise, I go this way...

Sets, sets and more sets... casting office, star facility, AMM & PP... and that's pretty much it. I don't bother with any other facilities (as I have instant film and instant build on), unless (as in your example) I really need em (I never bother hiring janitors or builders as I also keep buildings dont need repair on as well, and the less wandering render-monkeys, the better). As I have custom Starmaker stars, if (for any reason) they start to run too old or too seedy, I can fire em quite happily and get their clone in (purely because with the out-of-sequence shooting, it doesn't matter).

If there's enough interest, I might be tempted to do a pictures-and-everything-post about basic chromakeying in Magix, but I'm sure you can do a much better job of it, my dear ;)

[sisch]

Aaaah you charmer, you! :)

I don't have the time - I thought about making a walk through quite often, but I have just too little time. Some people around this forum wait for loads of vo's from me (I feel them glaring at my back right now :p), plus there's Grace on the menue - so I rather gladly dump this on you.... :biggrin:, if you're willing to do it!

As for lots, we do work them the same. :)

[Jase180]

My quick tip: Don't Suck at it.

[rileyman]

Just one thing I might suggest:

Be reluctant to make any cuts whatsoever in the Post Production editor -- particularly cuts at the front of shots. You'd be surprised how much fine detail (facial expressions especially) gets lost when you make cuts. If you export each scene in its entirety, it maintains all such details.

[Killian]

Good point, Riley; I tend to cut long and trim down later (especially if using a looooong scene but I only want to use a specific shot or animation movement from the actor).

Anyhoo, here is the very quick, very dirty Killian Guide To Magix Chromakeying (http://www.veoh.com/videos/v16578472sYc9MDDc); don't expect anything fancy or earth-shattering! If you already know how chromakeying works, it won't be of any interest, and for those that don't, it's a very VERY basic overview of how it works in Magix (hopefully enough to give you a basic grounding to work from).

[Nero]

Thanks for taking the time to this Killian , Much appreciated - i pretty much still suck at Magix

[sisch]

Very good video tut, Killian!

I guess that answers a lot of questions (and would certainly have helped me a big deal when I started out with Magix - actually seeing something being worked is so much easier than just read about it!). Great work! :)

[piotrtheman]

Great tips Killian and a good video tutorial. I'm sure this will come in handy for many of us:wink:

[Killian]

If folk get some assistance out of it, it was worth the time it took to make (about 15 mins; not exactly astronomical production values, but then that's not the point; so long as the info was clear enough, it's done it's job).

I thought of doing a "picture thread", but the sheer amount of screenies would have taken loads of time to prep, instructions would have had to be clear and concise and to be honest it was kinda fun to do it this way, anyway;)

Hope you chaps and chapesses find it useful :)

[Killian]

CLEAN CHROMAKEYING & SCENE TRANSITIONS
Something I just thought of in conjunction with cutting in Magix (in particular) and other OE's in general.

When shooting the original movie, especially if it contains chromakey shots, it's very easy to "bleed" frames over into the shot (i.e. you cut the shot, do your overlaying, render it out then realise that a piece of background slipped through at the start or end of the shot (like below)) :-
http://uk.geocities.com/laura.thibeault@btinternet.com/slippedover.JPG

In the above shot, a frame of the preceeding chunk has "bled" over into the next shot, showing through the chromakeying.

In order to avoid this, there's an easy way to deal with it. Position your timeline marker as close to the end of the preceeding shot as you can, then using the arrow keys, edge the shot forwards or backwards 1 frame at a time til the shot flips to the next scene. Then, back up one or two frames and use the "split scene" button (for Magix users, just under your video preview screen) while the offending track is highlighted. This cuts the filmstrip at that point.

Next, before you do anything else, frame advance a couple of steps with the arrow keys again until you are firmly into the next sequence and apply the split once more.

What you should now have is a little piece of movie about 2-5 frames in length in between the two cuts. Zoom in on the timeline, highlight and delete this section, then pull your timeline back together (check that it doesn't overlap and "autofade" frames, unless that's the effect you are going for).

This should eliminate those "rogue bleeds" from your movie; it can take some practise (and a lot of patience, especially if you have done a lot of chromakey scenes) to get them all, but the final, clean transistion is worth the effort.

This process also works if you want to "fine tune" a cut on a scene (for example, if you were using a tracking shot and the end of the scene displays a piece of set or other item you didn't want); frame advance, cut, frame advance, cut and delete and voila... it's gone!

[sisch]

Killian, a question - and I think this might interest a few people, so I'll ask it here -

I want to greenscreen a second scene into a viewscreen aboard a spaceship. So far so good - no problem.
But - I've made a sweeping camera shot on the scene I want the other to put into, with the viewsreen slowly appearing in the field of vision. Now the problem - of course the second scene moves with the camera sweep, but I would like it to be static - I tried to tie it to a set position in the first shot, but that doesn't work (or I'm doing it wrong). Have you experience with this type of shot, is it possible at all? (and I hope my ramblings here make sense, somehow)

[Killian]

Makes perfect sense to me (but then again, I am a rambler myself, so I can follow the steps easily enough :))

Yes, there is a way to do it (the scene in Mckinley's Office at the end of Part 5 uses it, though that's not a brilliant example of the technique, and it took me a while to figure out how to do it!)

I'll rattle off another mini-viddy to show you how it's done, as it's rather finickity to explain without a visual aid...

[BiggsTrek]

I did a short "mirror" shot at the end of UPM-2-2, but the camera is constantly moving (slowly) throughout the 5-10 seconds of the shot. So obviously I had to match the position of the mirror but also the angle of the fake reflection.

Is this the same kind of thing? If so then it was fairly easy to do once I wrapped my head around what the reflection should look like...

[sisch]

Yep, sounds fairly similar to me, Biggsy...

yay for Killian making a video tut - this is great, thank you! :)
I hope I'll be able to bend my head around it!

[Killian]

Locking a Chromakeyed Scene to a position in the foreground (http://www.veoh.com/videos/v16612350A4KzgYNM)

Sound is really, REALLY crap (skips a lot; tried recording it thru the built-in audio on Cam Studio (my screen recording software) rather than a seperate narration track afterwards, but it's awful; not using it again, that's for sure; I'll reup it with a proper track tommorrow if you can't get the gist from the screen captures). For fans of The Fast Show, the middle section makes me sound like Rolly Birkin!

(I was very, VERY drunk!)

Still, it will give you a rough idea what it's about and how to do it (hopefully); at least you should be able to get a handle on what I'm on about!

The biggest issue with locking positions in a tracking shot is the more the foreground moves,, the more travel you'll get with the locked shot (as demonstrated in the video); with a slow pan like Biggsy mentions, it's easy enough to keep the background centred.

On longer pans, though, if you can find a position as close to the leading edge of the shot as you can when you track across (i.e. if going from left to right, lock the background shot as close to the right edge of the scene as you can), it will help to minimise the movement. There does, however, come a point where no matter how much you try, it's not possible to prevent "fly away" on a particular shot, unfortunately.

I've found that you will need to experiment with the size and position of the locking point to get the end result; sometimes, the smaller the locking point is (and/or the higher contrast the locking point has), the less "travel" you get on your background shot. And, ultimately, don't try to be too ambitious with the shot, or you'll end up ripping your hair out!

[BiggsTrek]

I'll just show off this little shot at the end of UPM-2-2...

http://biggstrek.googlepages.com/Blue16-GenDMirror2.wmv

[Edit: I just realized this has sound... so you're hearing Nahton doing an Announcer line!]

[sisch]

I think I got what you were trying to say, Killian - though I understood hardly a word of what you said! :)

I experimented with the sweeping shot again - but can't get it right, because the viewscreen comes into view only in the middle of the whole scene - and try as I might, I'm not able to get the greenscreened footage to stay put. Too much movement, I guess... or I'm still doing it wrong. :p

[Killian]

Redid the Picture Lock Video Tutorial (in order to destroy that awful first attempt :P)

HERE (http://www.veoh.com/videos/v16623521CHcFKgbD) is the new one; you might want to pause it when viewing through it as it's only short and flies through really fast, but hopefully it's clearer than the last one (used Magix to screen cap it this time; much better and no sound).

[Nero]

Great Tut's here Killian.

Quick Question : Is there a difference between shooting Green screen and Blue screen , when it comes to special effects and such ?

[Killian]

It really depends on the predominate colours in your foreground shot; if your foreground shot has a lot of green and/or yellow, don't try to greenscreen it (the chromakeying process will kindly wipe out half of the colours in your costumes and props and leave you looking like half your set and actors are invisible! Either that, or you need to drop the fade and threshold so much you will have a thick, very noticeable green line around all the foreground actors/props).

The same holds true for blues/purples on foreground shots where you are bluescreening; I wouldn't recommend using it on that.

The basic rule is, if there's a lot of green in your foreground shot (the one you are looking to composite onto another film strip), then use bluescreening, and vice versa.

For shots against a dark background (i.e. starfields, space, etc), I tend to find that green works slightly better than blue does (if you get the telltale "line", due to your foreground focus being so far away from the camera at the top of the shot, it's not so noticeable).

When using Magix, the rule is really to shoot relatively short distance shots with little to no movement for your initial composites; if you make the focus of the foreground shot too far away, it becomes almost impossible to clean up the keying fringe around it without wiping out half the detail. The closer the focus is to your camera at the top of the shot, the easier it is to clean the fringing.

Then, as you get more confident with your abilities to clean the shot up, start using longer distances and faster movements.

And don't try to create a 6 strip composite for your first attempt, or you will spend days trying to clean it up and end up being carted off by the nice people from the local sanitarium... :P

[Howitzer]

This is some incredibly useful information Killian! I'll certainly be using this for reference when I get back into production of my next movie.
Excelent stuff :)

Howie.

[Nero]

Ah thanks for clearing this up Killian , so am guessing that once your done with your initial shots , its just a matter of layering them according to what you want in the foreground and background right?

P.s - Is there some sort of green-screen prop or is my mind playing trick on me ...again :)

[Killian]

Easiest way is to get a Greenscreen backdrop (or make one of your own), coupled with a greenscreen floor for Tarison's 6er, 11er or 19er bluescreen sets (I made my own, but there are probably some floating about on the mod sites; if not, they are easy enough to make; if I can do it, I'm sure anyone can ;)). For more complicated shots, you can make green or bluescreen versions of particular sets, but that's really going deep into it and shouldn't really be necessary for anything other than the most effects-laden work (and not even then).

For simpler, close-up type shots, you can texture a backdrop prop or floor prop as the requisite colour and shoot against them (just be careful of your angling; as you are probably aware, it can look as if you've framed all the background set out, but you then find out when your doing your PP work that there's a bit of the background set poking through, or peeking into the edges of the shot. It's easy enough to fix by zooming in your OE program, but it's good practise to get used to the framing limits with the camera without having to rely on "fixing it up in post" all the time.

[Nero]

Ahh Yes , thanks indeed Killian , I was filming certain scenes in Project Zero , and couldn't help thinking , "wouldn't that be great if X would go by Z" and so on and so Fourth, i have decided to go back to the drawing board with this one , unfortunately it will mean that PZ in pushed back into 2009 but anyway back on topic , Thanks the for massive help

[Killian]

Well hopefully there have been some useful tricks and tips on this thread. Carry on asking specific (or none-specific) questions, if you have a query. I'm pretty sure there are enough OE editors around these parts who've used Magix, Vegas, Ulead, WMM, etc to give pointers to someone who has a poser ;)

[Killian]

In conjunction with the show this evening, feel free to ask questions in regard to ANY outside editor ere... tech questions, "how to" questions.... anything you can think of. There's a lot of experience in using OE now in the community, so don't suffer in silence! Ask away and you might well be surprised...

[sisch]

For some great "How to" videos, go to Overman's ZS Dissection Lab (http://www.vimeo.com/album/8725) - he regularly adds new tutorial videos!

You learn a lot about how to do special effects - plus if you're using Vegas, you might learn some new things about the program. :)

And of course, if you have any questions about Magix or Vegas - feel free to ask them here - I will answer as best as I can!

[asa.oleary123]

I was wondering what you two connoisseurs of Magix export do. Do you do avi. or wmv? Because exporting just 17 seconds or so is like 150MB, which for a 25 minute movie is stupidly space consuming. Any advice?

[sisch]

Size does matter.. :biggrin:

Lately, I don't care how big the files are anymore - I always export at best quality. Which means for wmv these settings:

Video: 1280x720; 25 Frames/s; VBR Quality 100
Audio: 44100 kHz; Stereo; CBR 160 kBit/s
Interlace mode: progressive

I also choose in advanced settings
variable bitrate - quality
I-Frame-interwall 1 (might be keyframe in english)

For AVI I use:
Video: 1280x720; 25 Frames/s; Indeo video 5.10
Audio: 48000 Hz, 1536 kBit/s; Stereo, PCM
Interlace mode: progressive

advanced setting: keyframe 1, quality 100

If you work with the highest resolution TM is offering naturally, you of course should exchange the 1280x720 with 768x432.

Naturally, the files are quite big - but after exporting them to the bestest quality I can get for personal use, I use a divx encoder to make them smaller again for upload. :)

I know this is somewhat excessive - Saving Grace is in it's best quality around 600MB - the version that is linked to TMU is about 217MB.

To make the files somewhat smaller, you could experiment with changing the VBR quality for wmv... I wouldn't change the keyframe setting though - that takes a lot of quality away.

[Killian]

For myself, I tend to use wmv pretty much exclusively. Sure, it's not as good quality as AVI, but it's a lot smaller and easier to work with ;) Of course, using MS or IC you're pretty much limited to using the avi that produces (unless you want to go to the trouble of re-rendering all your footage as wmv, but that's something I really wouldn't recommend you try :P)

AVI is more space hogging, it's true, but you are gaining a much better quality product at the end than using wmv.

Also, take into consideration your final footage resolution; for starters, you shouldn't be exporting TM footage from the game at ANYTHING less than Highest quality to work with (there's no space issue now TMO has gone so there's no excuse for using anything less than the best you can get); for MS or IC, I can speak to how their rendering systems work, so will bow to the greater knowledge of the oracles of those programs.

When working with TM footage, I personally tend to stick pretty much to 768x432, purely because that's the resolution that TM produces natively on export (as Sisch mentions above), so using this keeps a uniform look (keeps the size down, and it scales pretty well on full screening). Of course, upping the resolution, you need to be very careful when using multiple strips of film to ensure you make them all match the right resolution and screen ratio or the finished product will look wrong.

Ultimately, you are the final arbiter of your rendered footage; if it's too big, drop the resolution to an acceptable level that doesn't loose too much in the export; play with the settings til you find one that suits how you want it to look and save it as a preset so you can easily find it and apply it again.

One final word of advice; don't forget, it's not just the visuals that create a huge file size; look at all your audio as well. One track recorded at very high definition will increase your final movie size significantly, so don't just think visually; it's the whole thing that contributes to the final file size, so always check your film, audio and especially any visual effects you have (as these can very easily hog masses of space and render time if you aren't careful).

(Below is my general rendering setting window as it's set to render for TMU uploads; tweaking the encoding settings makes a HUGE difference to the render quality and the file size, so have a play but always remember what the settings were BEFORE you changed them, in case it comes out whacky ;))


http://uk.geocities.com/laura.thibeault@btinternet.com/magixscreen.JPG

[asa.oleary123]

Thanks Sisch and Killian! I shall copy these figures (and stuff) next time I export and i already knew that size does matter, but not in exporting terms. :whistling:

Been most helpful you have :thumbup1:

[sisch]

Funny that you mention it, Killian - I just now experimented with exporting from Vegas, and got the best looking results using wmv - not avi; although in Magix the avi files look better (plus the sound on the avi files is much better - in Vegas, too).
I think that's strange. I experimented with mov, too, but the files get even more insanely big, and my system stutters while playing them.
I might be doing something wrong, though - in Vegas, you have even more options for codecs than in Magix... it's slightly confusing. :biggrin:

[Killian]

Yeah; as I mentioned yesterday, I only ever export in .MOV when porting out a section of footage to put into VisionLab then, once it's complete, stick it into it's own Magix working file and only put it back in to the "final" working file when I'm ready to do the final render pass.

It's weird; maybe Vegas has better wmv codecs than Magix does, and vice versa for the avi codecs? Not sure, but that sounds very odd :) (just thought; does your Vegas come with the version 10/11 wmv codecs? That might be why they look better).

Another quick tip (can't remember if I mentioned this last night); when using footage "blocks", make an easily accessed folder on your HD (or, if you have multiple HDs, make one on the HD you have with the biggest amount of space) and store all the "blocks" in that; it will make it a lot easier to find film strips when you need them.

[sisch]

I already do that (having a special file for the blocks) - plus all the final renders of the blocks get the word "final" stuck on the end of the filename. :)

And no, Vegas works with version 9 wmv codecs.
I don't know why the avi files look less good than in Magix - I copied the settings for export from there, so they should be the same, but they aren't. Lot's of little quadrangles - it looks positively pixelated, while the Magix renders don't.

Very strange. I'm going to experiment some more. :)

Oh and btw - I export files for use in fxhome in avi, and export from fxhome in uncompressed avi format, too - maybe that's why the render of 15sec took the whole night... :biggrin:

[Torqual]

Hi, I have been reading this thread with great interest and I have some quite specific questions (I am afraid). I sense that Killian and/or Sisch may know the answers, but please, anyone feel free to shed some light on this....

I have started using Windows Movie Maker to edit footage from The Movies, and have worked out that 'Highest' does indeed equate to 768 x 432 resolution, 8192kbps and 29.97 fps. The problem that I have is WMM Movie Maker 6 (in Vista) does not allow me to publish in this resolution. This means that (from the available options) I am typically having to choose 512 x 288 or 640 x 360 (quality lost), or upscale to 856 x 480 or 1280 x 720 (image sharpness lost and pointless extra file size).

From reading up it seems possible to get a utility from www.papajohn.org that allows you to set up a custom profile in WMM to export in user-defined resolutions/bit rates.

Question 1.
Just wondering whether anyone has done that, and how it worked out for them? What settings did you use to avoid losing quality from 'Highest' as exported from The Movies?

Question 2.
Does the other outside editors you are using allow you to just select 768 x 432? Wouldn't that be marvellous... If so, what are you using, please?

Question 3.
It's pretty obvious to me that the in-game resolution of The Movies is much better than 'Highest' export setting, and I wonder why it's impossible to export in this setting? I am talking about the resolution achieved in Post Production when you click the 'viewing technology' button. I think this is 1280xSomething. From a rough estimation of screen size I think it may even be 1280x720 which - if it were usable - would be PERFECT as that is HD resolution and is supported natively by Windows Movie Maker 6.0 and upload sites including Vimeo! Which leads me to the questions:

Does anybody know what 'viewing technology' resolution is, and whether it is possible to hack/mod TM and export as a .wmv in that resolution? Or at least something better than 768x432? Perhaps 1024x576?

I would be really grateful for any answers to any of this...

In the meantime I am off to scour modders' websites and the Lionhead forum for any scraps of info. If I get anywhere I will answer my own questions here.

[kuroken]

Well, I can answer somewhat, at least...LOL

If you go here:

http://blogs.msdn.com/mglehman/archive/2007/02/08/windows-vista-movie-maker-custom-profiles.aspx

you can read about how to create custom profiles for windows media player for the export. Just download the windows media profile editor, and you can select the size, quality, etc. - it generates a .prx file and that link explains where to put it.

Now, you can also generate a prx file for The Movies as well, to determine the output of the software - your best bet (since we don't need to use online quality anymore) is to make a directory called Video in your Data directory in the program folder (not sure what it is in Vista, but whereever the stuff for mods would go, that's the place) - call the prx file wmvprofile_upload.prx - then when you export from the movies and use online resolution, it will export in whatever size and quality you've put in the prx.

(yes, sounds kind of confusing, but get the media profile editor and play with it, and all will be fall into place)

Ken

[DL Watson]

Firstly, I understand your pain, that why I would firstly recommend you use a different editor then the very generic version that Windows offers. I use Sony Vegas Pro, but there is a very powerful and much cheaper version called Sony Vegas Studio, I definitely recommend it.

A program like that would give you the option to put your own custom resolution.

There is a way you can edit the prx files in The Movies to change the resolution in which it captures the footage at, however, even when it doesn't crash the program, it just looks like a the same resolution blown up. If you want to find out more on how to do that, you need to speak to Tarison, for he has more details on how to adjust the prx files. It just didn't work for me.

Which is why I turned to the far superior solution in my opinion. You mentioned you would like to get the graphical detail and depth that the game performs in, and the only way to really accomplish that is to buy a program called Fraps.

When you are finished making your movie, bring it into the Post Production office and click f10, press play, and while it plays in real time Fraps will record up to the resolution you have your monitor set to. So if you want a HD picture, set your monitors settings to the highest. When its done playing, press f10 again and your done. Exit the movies and it will be located in your Fraps folder in a avi file (which is uncompressed btw, great color and picture depth).

But there is a catch to this golden method. If your computer doesn't have at least 2 gigs of ram and with at least 500 gigs of space, then it wont be worth it. You'll get dropped frames and it will only make you more frustrated.

So I hope this helps you a tad and I wish you Good Luck!

[samyhouse]

Well, I can answer somewhat, at least...LOL

If you go here:

http://blogs.msdn.com/mglehman/archive/2007/02/08/windows-vista-movie-maker-custom-profiles.aspx

you can read about how to create custom profiles for windows media player for the export. Just download the windows media profile editor, and you can select the size, quality, etc. - it generates a .prx file and that link explains where to put it.

Now, you can also generate a prx file for The Movies as well, to determine the output of the software - your best bet (since we don't need to use online quality anymore) is to make a directory called Video in your Data directory in the program folder (not sure what it is in Vista, but whereever the stuff for mods would go, that's the place) - call the prx file wmvprofile_upload.prx - then when you export from the movies and use online resolution, it will export in whatever size and quality you've put in the prx.

(yes, sounds kind of confusing, but get the media profile editor and play with it, and all will be fall into place)

Ken


Helo :)

Itryed this and it seems not working, maybe I did something wrong.
Can you make a short tutorial about this?

[sisch]

Samy, there's an easy way to change the TM output resolution: go here (http://forum1.onlinewelten.com/showthread.php?t=204922) (I know it's in german :)) and download the file from the link given at the end of the first post. Please be sure to credit Hirsches if you use the "TM Resolution Changer exe", and be aware that you will only be able to up the resolution to the size your computer and screen are able to support!

Just run the exe on your desktop, and before starting TM, choose in which size you want to export. It works (and looks!) great! I'm doing all my exports at 1280x720 now. :)

[jerryshoot]

Sisch,
Thank you for that link!

...jerry

[samyhouse]

Yay! exactly what I need! Thanks a lot :)

[frosty_frost09]

be aware that you will only be able to up the resolution to the size your computer and screen are able to support! I'm doing all my exports at 1280x720 now. :)

Will it support 1280x800? (that's the size of my laptop screen.)

EDIT: if it won't, would chaning my resolution to 1280x720 work?

[sisch]

I don't think you can add your own resolution - but I think 1280x720 should work fine for you, Frosty... haven't tried it, though, but as 1280x800 is larger, it should work?

[Uber]

is there another lonk to the resolution changer? The current one is dead for me.

[SSProductions]

Thank you very much for these tips. Once I get used to using After Effects I might start using that if any of the bugs in The Movies start popping up.

[sisch]

is there another lonk to the resolution changer? The current one is dead for me.

It works fine for me - if you still experience problems, pm me!

[Dulci]

Sony Vegas users - this might be interesting to you:

http://filmmakeriq.com/post-production/editing/sony-vegas-rendering-settings-and-hd-formats.html

[Uber]

It works fine for me - if you still experience problems, pm me!

the nasty gringo, el killian help me out.

[JazzX]

the nasty gringo, el killian help me out.

?

Here: http://rapidshare.com/files/230495045/TMRC_1_0.zip.html

[Uber]

?

Here: http://rapidshare.com/files/230495045/TMRC_1_0.zip.html

I already said Killian helped me out, unless this is for everyone else.

[FallenThomas]

Hey Killian or Sisch, I am a Magix user and was wondering how I could add some of those typical effects from some of Michael Barnes or Pooka's machinima to my film. For example, the camera shaking (not the Augie filter) and zooming as well as the focus blur. Any help would be much appreciated! :001_smile:

[Killian]

As far as I recall, Pooka used After Effects for the effects in November, rather than those built into Magix (not sure what Michael used without checking, but have a sneaking suspicion it was also AE). There IS a "shake" effect, but it's not that brilliant... when I get a sec, I'll have a look at it again (unless someone else beats me to it ;))

[Uber]

There is a shake effect for After Effects, you can also do a shake in sony, but you have to pay for it, and there is a jutter effect in sony which allows you to do a close faux effect of shake.

[FallenThomas]

Regarding chromakeying, what is the best shade of blue (or other color) to use for the best effect? You know, so that I can easily remove all colors that cling to the edge of characters' bodies.

[macwemyss]

I would recommend as bright a colour as possible, seems to work best.

The chromakeying in After Effects offers the most control over what you can get rid of but you need to be careful that the edges don't come out "scraggy". Try to get it to look as smooth as possible.

As far as Magix goes (which is what I use for pretty much all my editing, visual and otherwise) then you are unlikely to ever fully get rid of the colour around the edges, but sometimes you can edit the colours to give the illusion that it's gone. For example, I often lower the saturation to make it less noticeable. The Movies' default look is too brightly coloured anyway in my opinion.

The best way to use depth of field in my experience is to try and restrict it to close to mid shots. Long shots tend to make the upper layer look untidy and tacked on. Remember that although it should make a noticeable difference in the visuals, it shouldn't be overly distracting. Keep it subtle and use it sparingly ;)

Hope this helps :)

[Uber]

Get the resolution as high as you can get it and the colour as intense as you can as well. I know that Vegas also has a blur option which makes the edges smooth. Suck on that Magix!

[FallenThomas]

Get the resolution as high as you can get it and the colour as intense as you can as well. I know that Vegas also has a blur option which makes the edges smooth. Suck on that Magix!

I've only got Magix. :pinch:

[sgnr76]

Some extra tips for outside editing in a NLE:
(With apologies for anything already mentioned)

1. While you don't want long movie files to edit, keep individual scenes a little longer than you might need. It's tempting to only export the exact length you need for a scene, but it will severely limit the way you can transition between scenes. You can always trim a scene down to what you need, but once the scene is too short, you're kind of screwed.

2. For transitioning between scenes, keep it simple, and keep it consistent. If you choose to go Lucas-esque with circle/diagonal wipes, run with it. Just don't try to add cross or pixellated fades or things will look sloppy. And vise versa. One transition style is really all you need.

3. More on transitions. The speed of your transition should ideally equal the pace of the action on screen. To a very large degree, the pacing of your final picture will come from how you edit the scenes together. Lots of quick cuts will give the impression of a faster pace. Longer scenes with few cuts tend to slow things down. The original Star Wars trilogy is a great place to see how editing affects the perception of pacing.

4. Use color correction effects to give your scenes a more uniform color palette. Evening out the colors across a whole project will make it look more cohesive.

5. Add music and sound effects in your NLE as much as possible. While you do need to use MS and TM for your lip synch files, try to use the audio from your output file as a guide track only. Overdubbing the voices, and adding your effects and music in NLE post production will give you MUCH more flexibility, along with a wealth of effects you can use on each aspect of your audio for a better overall sound.

[Evan Waters]

Anyone here use iMovie and have any tips for that? I've been wondering the best settings for exporting from there (the best quality one tends to create really huge files, too big to upload here), and also how to cut off the matte bars so that the overlay effects don't break out of the frame.

[sgnr76]

More on audio:
(With more apologies for anything posted that falls into the "Well DUH!" category)


Let me level with you:

Somewhere in your outside editor, there should be a sound level meter that represents the signal level strength of your master audio channel. Put more simply, it tells you how loud your audio will be in the finished video.

Usually, the number starts at -Inf (infinity) at the bottom, then works it's way to 0db, before going into a red zone above 0db.

To get the best sound possible, you want to flirt with hitting the 0db mark without actually hitting or surpassing it, which would cause distortion. As digital distortion is very harsh it is to be avoided at all costs.

When recording audio into your editor, have a peek at the level meter while you do a practice run through your lines. If you run into the red, or very close to it (between -1db and 0db), lower the input volume of your mic until your peaks are hitting somewhere in the -3db range. The reason I go lower is that some effects will clip (distort) if the input signal is too strong.

When mixing audio, things get a bit trickier. The more tracks of audio you add, the quicker things will get to distortion levels. Enter, the submix.

Fix it in the (sub)mix.

Working with submixes can be tricky at first, but will save a lot of hassles, headaches, and most importantly, CPU cycles in the long run.

**NOTE** Not all editors are created equally when it comes to submixes, so this will be more a general guide of how you can make them work for you. Most info on how to set up a submix is your editor can likely be found in the Help files, in the user guide, or online.

So let's take an hypothetical example project: A 6 minute courtroom drama. You've decided on having 5 speaking roles (Judge, 2 lawyers, witness, defendant), plus a few sound effects (gavel bangs, courtroom murmurs and chatter, the sound of the stenographer recording the testimony), and finally some background music.

Simple right? So let's map out what we need to mix. If we were to label each element the way we would on a mixing board, it would look a little like this:

Judge
Defense
Prosecutor
Witness
Defendant
Gavel
Stenographer
Courtroom ambient
Music

That makes 9 tracks of audio to balance without going over the 0db mark. Tricky, but not impossible. But now we decide the courtroom sounds too small for real drama, so we want to add some "large room" reverb to the voices to make it sound like they're in large space the way we see things in Hollywood.

So let's add reverb to our spoken parts with an asterisk

Judge *
Defense *
Prosecutor *
Witness *
Defendant *
Gavel
Stenographer
Courtroom ambient
Music

Notice something? Well, yes, the sound levels do change once the reverb is added, so we now have to adjust the levels for all 9 tracks again to get the sound balanced just the way we like it.

Now that the vocals are fixed, and the sound is back to being balanced, we notice the sound effects need a little something. Maybe a light compression (+) and a little bit of reverb (-) to give them some ambience and make things sound more realistic.

So now our mixing board would something like:

Judge *
Defense *
Prosecutor *
Witness *
Defendant *
Gavel +-
Stenographer +-
Courtroom ambient +-
Music

Back to adjusting our levels. And is it my imagination or are things running a bit slower? Could it be the 8 reverb effects and the 3 compression effects? Dammit, can't this be done in an easier way?

Yes.

First, we notice from the layout of our virtual mixing board that we seem to have 3 "groups" of sounds. We have the spoken parts, sound effects, and music. These will be our submixes.

Submix A
Judge *
Defense *
Prosecutor *
witness *
Defendant *

Submix B
Gavel +-
Stenographer +-
Courtroom ambient +-

Submix C
Music

Hmm, even better, it seems each of our elements in our submixes use the same effects. We can now move the effects from each track to the submix track.

Submix A (*)
Judge
Defense
Prosecutor
witness
Defendant

Submix B (+-)
Gavel
Stenographer
Courtroom ambient

Submix C
Music

We have now gone from running 8 reverb effects to 2, and from 3 compression effects to just one, with the same sound as before. This should speed up render times on any system by a noticeable amount.

Even better, is once our relative levels in each group are set, we now only need to manipulate 3 faders on our editor to adjust the sound. Effects too loud compared to the voices? Lower the B fader to reduce the overall sound effects level.

Getting the levels in each group set can be every bit as much a pain in the ass as without any submix groups set up, but once they're set,it's a single fader to adjust their overall volume level in the final mix as you add or remove effects, submix groups, etc.

[sgnr76]

Things to think about:

1 - You can never "fix it in the mix."

The most important thing when it comes to getting a sound - from a voice over, to a sound effect, to an ambient background noise to loop in the background to give things a more natural sound, getting a clean take is the single most important thing.

A distorted signal that was recorded too hot will always be distorted and will be noticeable in the mix, no matter what tools you use to try and restore the signal. Make sure that no part of your signal in any way goes past the 0db limit when recording or mixing down.

Also, a clean take means recording a sound without ANY effects applied during the input stage. It might sound really cool to record your voice with that ring modulator on for your robot overlord character, but if later you find that the sound gets lost in the mix, or runs into phasing problems with other sonic elements, you're SOL for solutions other than re-recording the part from scratch. Add your audio effects in post-production where you'll have more control over the final sound and can tweak things to fit better in your sound mix.

2 - If everything is in stereo, nothing is in stereo.

To make the most of a stereo image, you ideally want the individual elements of your mix to be mono files, so you have the most freedom to pan around the stereo field and give your audio some depth.

If a character hears a voice off screen to the left, it should sound as if the voice is coming from the left to the viewer. It doesn't have to be a drastic pan (10-15% is usually enough) but it should clearly be coming from the left. With a mono file, set the pan fader to taste, and you're set.

Doing this with a stereo file becomes complicated since you'll have to pan an unnatural amount to any one side to overcome the fact that you have a clear signal coming from the side it isn't supposed to. Multiply this excess signal by a dozen tracks or more and your mix will soon be a cluttered mess. You end up losing space to place subtle spatial clues to your viewer on where they should focus their attention.

3 - Dynamic range is about more than just volume.

Every now and then, you'll have what you feel is the perfect sound balance. Your fader volumes are low enough to give you plenty of headroom before reaching distortion, and things seem to be going well.

Yet, for some reason, you'll get these weird spikes that reach the clipping point even though the overall volume of the track doesn't appear to rise high enough to go into distortion. What gives?

In fact, your signal really is too loud, but perhaps only at certain frequencies.

A common problem is that your files will all be bottom/mid/top heavy in terms of frequencies and eventually you run out of headroom in that range. So even though the overall volume of your master audio track doesn't appear to rise significantly, your signal clips in a certain range that will cause that nasty digital distortion.

So what to do?

Do exactly what professional studios do, use EQ to trim away frequencies so things play nice together. To use a music example, bass guitar, kick drums, and guitars can all occupy the same frequency range. A recording engineer will often chop down a LOT of the low end of an electric guitar so it doesn't get washed out by the bass and drums (and one of those will be made artificially brighter than the other so the sounds of each aren't washed out by the other).

Taken individually, each track of a given song wouldn't sound right - the guitar might sound too thin, the kick drum too boomy, the bass too brash, but mixed together, each element fills the sonic space vacated by the other two and the result is pleasing to the ear.

In the home movie studio, the same approach can be taken. If your character has a deep rumbling voice, try using EQ to roll off some of the bass frequencies of your music track (or another track) to give the voice some space in the mix. The roll off doesn't need to be extreme. A little here and there can make all the difference.

It should be noted that EQ is generally part of each channel's set up, so this is one "effect" that should be applied on a track by track basis and NOT be done through the submix channel, unless you're trying to be really avant garde.

[sgnr76]

Two quick tests to check your audio mix:

1 - The "Background Noise" test.
Put your movie on, set the volume to about the volume you'd listen to a DVD at home (maybe a hair louder if you can), and then do anything but watch the movie. Read a magazine, leave the room and come back in, lie on the bed/couch, have a snack. If the sound mix is noticeable, something needs to be fixed. Ideally, the soundtrack should become background noise and ideally sound the same way a television set to any random channel would sound as background noise and just be "there."

If you notice it's on, it's usually your ear picking out something it doesn't like and alerting you to it. Usually after a listen or two like this, you'll know what's bugging you and you'll get ideas on how to fix it.


2 - The "Blindfold" test

For this test, sit at your computer, put on your movie, and while looking toward the screen, close your eyes and simply listen. The closing of the eyes is important so you can focus on how things sound without the confusion of trying to reconcile the sound with the look.

Are sounds coming from where there are supposed to? Do the sound locations match what you visualize in your head/in your video? Are people/things closer to the camera louder than people/things in the background?

Ideally, the sound should be able to carry the load of the story the way a radio play might.

** NOTE ** This test should be performed in the final stages of post when you have an intimate knowledge of the visuals on screen. Closing the eyes is ver important to avoid distractions, so you have to be able to know what is going on on screen in order to know how the sound compares to the action.