Politics

[Roger]

I am interested in peoples political views.

I am a member of The Liberal Democrat Party in the UK.

The reason I am a member is because they agree with my personal beliefs, which are:

Democracy
People before profit
Socialised Medicine
Becoming more integrated with Europe (But I do believe that a referendum should be held)
Welfare state
Less government involvement in our everyday lives
Local people to deal with local issues
Proportional representation

I am also looking to stand as a local councillor in 2011.

So what political views do you hold?

[Del]

I have been jaded by all current political systems. Democracy in practice is a brilliant idea, but it hardly gets put into practice properly. I don't agree with any political party in any country I've lived in, there is a disturbing amount of corruption in every political denomination.
But then again, anarchy would kill us off for sure, so I'm personally left wondering what kind of system could possibly, feasibly work.
I believe a healthy combination of both a technocracy and a democracy would be preferable. I hate the popularity contest. Being a popular person does not make you a good leader, as evidenced by...the politicians themselves. And it seems to be a common occurrence in history too, the most popular men were poor leaders. As a matter of fact, dictatorships were often the most effective method of ruling a country, until they become tyrannical of course...

I always vote for the lesser of the evils and do not feel like I'm 'throwing my vote away'. Tactical voting or voting because you like the personality of the leader just seems to fly in the face of democracy for me. It's sad.

[Roger]

The only way to change the system is from the inside. So how about standing yourselves?

[riott007]

communist party
bread for everybody!

[A_N_D]

Aside from religion, you obviously couldn't have picked a more volatile subject....

Fiscally and militarily conservative

Bedroom and living space liberal

Pro-choice, pro-death penalty (both case-by-case, according to circumstances and individual responsibility)

Pro-personal responsibility!

Anti-idiot with a finger on the button


A_N_D

[Del]

The only way to change the system is from the inside. So how about standing yourselves?

Because I'd be cheating my principles. I don't fully agree with any of the current political models yet agree with parts of each. I believe the system itself is flawed, the only way to change it would be to remove it and start afresh. And removing political systems almost always requires war, unfortunately. Introducing a technocracy into say, Britain's democracy would require the entire population to start thinking differently and the current parliament to be dissolved etc.

I have been interesting in doing something though, but I really wouldn't know where to begin. Won't be able to for another 5 years anyway, since I'm living in a country I don't have citizenship for. :p

[riott007]

Govt. never work because people are flawed.

[Elbow]

I remember a movie called "Moscow on the Hudson" - Robin Williams is Vladimir Ivanoff, a Russian sax player drawn to renouncing Russia because of his feelings of repression and lost opportunity in his native land. In America, Vladimir is in a shopping center looking at a grocery isle full of loaves of bread. He faints right there looking at these hundreds of fresh baked loaves.

With the freedom to pick which loaf of bread to buy comes the freedom to starve to death.

How ironic that we in the US think that we have all this "freedom" yet we really don't because we're slaves to consumerisms. While in Russia, a colorful family still wasn't enough for Vladimir to keep him satisfied.

People are flawed, so it's best to give them to widest birth of freedom to keep them content. I think, for all it's crap, countries with Republics or Democracy offer the best chance for people to be happy.

[Roger]

Aside from religion, you obviously couldn't have picked a more volatile subject....

I never shun any subject, and intentionally picked a volatile subject. I do intend to do a religion one soon too.

But I like to run these kinds of threads as I tend to learn from them.

The best one I ran was "Satanism, what's that all about then?"

I sure learnt a lot from that one. For example; Satanists do not believe in Satan. Amazing eh!? ;)

[rogerSIMIAN]

Scotland's traditionally been a fairly socialist country, and my beliefs usually lie somewhere vaguely left of the centre (but not too far). I've never been much interested in party politics, though. I don't think it's healthy to live your life by blindly following any rigid belief system - whether politics, religion, philosophy, or science-based - 'cause I think life is far too complicated and un-knowable to be easily summed up in a set of rules made up by a bunch of evolved primates with a superiority complex. :-) But I think if you choose not to vote in elections then your "inaction" is a form of action and you're just as responsible for the government you end up with as are the people who voted. The region where I live is a Liberal-Democrat party strong-hold. If they don't get in then it'll be the Conservative party (the Tories). Labour will never get in here. So, apart from one time when I voted for the SNP (Scottish Nationalist Party), I've always voted Liberal-Democrat in order to keep the Tories out.

I made up a term "auto-moralism" when I was talking to friends about stuff like this. I don't mean that any individual should think themselves above the morals of the rest of their society (that way lies an obsession with the works of Wagner and Nietzsche, and an unhealthy love of uniforms). I mean that the best route through life might be to deal with every incident case-by-case. Rather than having one set of rules - a religious belief, political belief, philosophical belief etc - and trying to make all of life squeeze neatly into place within it, it might be better to pick and choose from a wider pallet of politics, religion, philosophy, instinct, your own personal experience etc and use whatever seems to best fit the situation you're in. That way you don't have the trauma of having to trying to adjust a rigid mental-map of the world every time life changes. You can end up appearing to have beliefs that contradict each other but I think life is full of contradictions.

The basic motto is "Think for yourself!"

Well, that's my Auto-Moralism idea. It's not at all new. I think the Chinese were more-or-less practicing it 4 centuries before Christ and calling it Taoism - haha.

Roger - can I just pre-empt your religion thread by saying that I'm a Taoist-Darwinist? :D

[Roger]

Roger your political views are not so different from mine. I place personal freedom very highly and although I have certain beliefs, I do not expect others to have the same. But I do believe that what the majority wants, should be what is done, even if it goes against what I personally believe.

As for what you said about voting, it reminds me of the saying "with democracy, you get the leaders that you deserve!" I always feel that applies more to those who don't vote, than those who do.

For example: One thing that really annoys me is to do with Europe. I am pro-Europe! This is because I looked into what the European Government do, and discovered I liked the way they are just left of centre and more socialised than any mainstream party that we currently have.

So to the bit that annoys me. Most people in Britain are anti-Europe, but they refuse to vote in European elections. By doing this they will make Britain become more involved with Europe. Even though it is what I personally want. This is the wrong way for it to happen. I think the people need to be informed better on what happens in Europe, and not left in the dark. After all we are not mushrooms! (Kept in the dark and fed on shit!)

So by not voting people will get the Europe they deserve, which is very likely a different Europe from the one they want. Saying you you don't agree with the system doesn't help. You've got to do something, or nothing changes. So what can be done to change things?

You can vote. (I have in every election since I was voting age.)
You can stand for office. (I intend to)
You can protest. (I have signed many petitions and been on protest marches.)
You can talk about your views to others. (This thread is one place to do that. ;))
You can put across your views in music, writing, movies, comedy or any other art form.

So even if you don't vote, there are still things you can do. Even if you refuse to choose, you still have made a choice!


Govt. never work because people are flawed. Very profound words indeed.

[kuroken]

But I do believe that what the majority wants, should be what is done, even if it goes against what I personally believe.

Majority rule is a horribly flawed concept.

I support and defend anyone's right to have an ill-informed, halfwitted opinion. I do not support and defend their right to have the ill-informed, halfwitted opinion impact my life.

Just because there's a lot of 'em don't make 'em right.

Ken

[Norrie]

I hate the majority.

People are stupid. There, I've said it. They are stupid and get what they deserve by being led by shiny pictures on the tube in the corner that tells them what to think.

Television is the curse of the modern age people. Turn it off and read a book; listen to the radio; sit in silence and think.

Marx said that religion was the opiate of the people. He hadn't seen anything then.

[Roger]

Well if the majority are stupid and they don't vote, maybe that means democracy is the best system? ;)

[Elbow]

"Politicians have interests. All human beings have interests. Whenever people have interests, it gives them something to protect. So people, including politicians, lie to protect their interests" Loyal Rue

Pretty cynical, but worth putting into the mix when choosing what kind of government has the most/best safeguards to protect the freedoms of its governed.

You lied to me, you're a l iiiiiii e r.

[kuroken]

Well if the majority are stupid and they don't vote, maybe that means democracy is the best system? ;)
Sadly, they flock to the polls like lemmings to a cliff - if they'd just quietly go over the edge, I'd have no complaints, but too often they drag me over it with them.

[rogerSIMIAN]

"Just because there's a lot of 'em don't make 'em right." ~ Ken

Haha - think I'll have that as my new motto.

I personally believe in much stronger prison sentences in the UK for major crimes but don't believe the death-penalty makes for a healthy society. I think if the mob had the absolute say in the UK they may well bring back capital punishment which would make this country a much worse place in my opinion.

I fully understand the personal urge for revenge when you or a loved one has been attacked in any way, and I would have a certain empathy for anybody who was crazed enough by trauma and grief to take action against the perpetrator. But for a government to do likewise sends a dangerous message right down through society - that the solution to most problems is violence.

If you look at the lists here it's interesting to see which countries still allow the death penalty and which no longer do...

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html

[Del]

Majority rule is a horribly flawed concept.

I support and defend anyone's right to have an ill-informed, halfwitted opinion. I do not support and defend their right to have the ill-informed, halfwitted opinion impact my life.

Just because there's a lot of 'em don't make 'em right.


That's exactly how I feel about democracy. There is a reason why in ancient cultures, women weren't allowed to vote. It wasn't because they were women technically, it was because they were uneducated. (And the men kept them that way, but that's a separate issue.)
The point is, those who have no idea what they're voting for should not be allowed to vote. In Australia it is mandatory to vote, it seems that that freedom of speech does not cover silence. There have been times when I have not voted, simply because I lacked the knowledge needed to make a decision.

So if voting is so important, then mandatory political education should be even more important.

[Roger]

So does that mean that just because somebody is uneducated that they shouldn't be allowed to vote?

I see the problem as the media, especially newspapers. They put a slant on things and say "public opinion says". In reality it is a case of "we are telling you". I believe if the media has a responsibility to present the news correctly, and not alter it to suit their own agenda, this it would help people a lot.

Give people the truth, so they will make the right choice for themselves when they vote. Many people it seems to me vote for people who don't necessarily do what's best for them.

In other words: If being uneducated or badly educated makes for bad voters, then the answer seems to me to educate them with the facts, without bias.

Take Europe for example: Most Brits are against it, because they only knowledge of it is from the British media. Research it yourself, and then come back with your own opinion. You may be surprised of how different it is from the media portrayal. I know I was.

[kuroken]

In Australia it is mandatory to vote, it seems that that freedom of speech does not cover silence.

What freedom of speech (http://www.aph.gov.au/library/Pubs/RN/2001-02/02rn42.htm)? (and actually, most countries, if they have any "official" freedom of speech in place, have it legislated - and laws can easily be repealed. For all out faults, the US has a constitution that guarantees it, and modifying the constitution is a process that takes an awful lot of people on many levels to be in agreement - sure, an authoritarian government could theoretically take power and toss the constitution out of the window, but most Americans wouldn't stand for something that blatant and hey, as you all know, we all have guns ;))

Ken

[Elbow]

Roger
I see the problem as the media, especially newspapers. They put a slant on things and say "public opinion says". In reality it is a case of "we are telling you". I believe if the media has a responsibility to present the news correctly, and not alter it to suit their own agenda, this it would help people a lot.

Cheers for alternative media - The "velvet curtain" - America's answer to Russia's old Iron Curtain is, day by day, losing its monopoly. My heart will surely break when Snopes can no longer be trusted. I always knew Mr Roger's was not a Marine sniper. (wink to ken)

[Realitycheck513]

Majority rule isnt always right look at The President the worst snake oil salesman that has ever been in the whitehouse but yet the majority of the country voted 4 him becuz he is a born again and he has a twang in his voice

[Roger]

Majority rule isnt always right look at The President the worst snake oil salesman that has ever been in the whitehouse but yet the majority of the country voted 4 him becuz he is a born again and he has a twang in his voice
Which once again demonstrates that giving people the information to make their own choices is very important. Rather than letting the media put a slant on things. :shit:

Unbiased reporting is of a premium! :001_smile:

[ChatNoir]

Majority rule is a horribly flawed concept.

I support and defend anyone's right to have an ill-informed, halfwitted opinion. I do not support and defend their right to have the ill-informed, halfwitted opinion impact my life.

Just because there's a lot of 'em don't make 'em right.

Ken

Ah, I can always depend on Ken to articulate gracefully exactly how I feel. :)

I suppose I’m not particularly into politics. I just like to watch it because it’s like watching gymnastics of abstract concepts, beautiful language, and mass manipulation. As a politician, you gotta hit all the points, and do so meticulously and “gracefully,” and under great pressure too. It’s awesome.

[kingpengvin]

I hate the majority.

People are stupid. There, I've said it. They are stupid and get what they deserve by being led by shiny pictures on the tube in the corner that tells them what to think.

Television is the curse of the modern age people. Turn it off and read a book; listen to the radio; sit in silence and think.

Marx said that religion was the opiate of the people. He hadn't seen anything then.


Of course, there are many stupid and bad books as well.
Like all mediums there are good and bad. There are some quite intellegent and interesting things on the boob tube as well as the fistfull of mediocrities and finally the majority of Swill which we rail against.

Guess what same goes for movies books and radio... and silence... Damn if you heard the stupid shit I think of you'd drop 100 IQ points... oh yeah that's right I voice that on the TMOA. :59:

As for my political views, I'm liberal leaning with some Conservative stripes. I Agree with universal health care against guns and public executions.

I don't fear big governement so long as it is tempered and abids with with a constitutional guarantee of protection of Individual rights. I don't believe the Free market is necessarily the best way to make decisions however I don't subsribe to Communism either. Business and Government need to work with each other one to keep the other efficient and the one to keep the other honest.

I don't believe in censorship up to a point. That point being where there is actual harm caused to someone or meant to be caused to someone in the name of the art.

I don't like to be bracketed into one political party because I feel it is the duty of every citizen to rail against their current standing government no matter who it is or how well they are doing just to keep them honest.

I do believe in long winded speechifying.

[Norrie]

Of course, there are many stupid and bad books as well.

When was the last time you heard someone say: "it's a stupid book, but there is nothing else on"?

Now substitute book for TV show...

get my point? It's brain dead, and terrifying. You think anyone would read a FoxNews book?

[Jase180]

When was the last time you heard someone say: "it's a stupid book, but there is nothing else on"?

Now substitute book for TV show...

get my point? It's brain dead, and terrifying. You think anyone would read a FoxNews book?

Well, some asswits (http://www.harpercollins.com/books/9780060748371/Deliver_Us_from_Evil/index.aspx)have

Sean Hanity is an asswit.

me, Im a liberal democrat. I dont always agree with things in my party, but I try and use common sense.

Infact, thats what we needs, a common sense party.

[wackyal3000]

To me all elections are screwed up. I envy a country like Zimbabwe which can have an MDC party because everyone knows the governeant is ilegal. America has illegal George and we've got Boris Johnson as Mayor of London because he was slightly funny on a panel show!

As for me, I'm kind of odd. I suppourt the Labour party but I suppourt the Monarchy. I dont like the fact that unelected people in Brussels have so much power over us and I think Alex Salmon is an idiot. Yet I suppourt the sovreignty of Ireland. Long live the British Empire (i.e a couple of rocks in the pacific)

[Roger]

I don't like the fact that unelected people in Brussels have so much power over us
The Parliament in Brussels is elected! :wacko:

The problem is that most people don't vote in the European elections. If you are of voting age and don't vote, then you get the Government that you deserve! :huh:

If enough people voted against Britain staying in Europe by voting UKIP, then we would be out of Europe.

I have voted UKIP in a couple of Euro Elections. But I decided to research the European Parliament and what it does, and I totally changed my viewpoint. I am now pro-Europe. Just look at the UK laws passed recently. Most of the decent ones were brought in by Europe, but our Government claims the credit.

But Check it out (http://europa.eu/index_en.htm)yourselves and make up your own mind.

[wackyal3000]

People dont vote UKIP because they are fools and the BNP is a badly disguised NF.

[Roger]

The BNP is gaining ground by stirring Paranoia of immigrants. The media have a lot to answer for in that area too.

The complaint that immigrants steal our jobs. The thing is the jobs that they take are usually the ones that the complainers wouldn't "lower themselves" to do.

I say well done to the immigrants, as they are paying taxes that make things better for all of us.

Eastbourne has a large immigrant population. Out of approx 110,000 population there are roughly 2,000 Spanish, 3,000 Portuguese and about 10,000 Polish. There are other ethnic minorities too.

I believe it makes for an interesting and vibrant community. We have a lot of interesting shops and restaurants.

In my own street around me in 20 homes we have Irish, Australian, New Zelanders, Iranians, (ex) American, and African. It makes for a very nice community. :)

[Fospherous]

Immigration is definatley spiralling out off control, but it is a good thing as roger said, because we get more of a community and get to see different things that we may of not seen before.
where I used to live, which was Coventry, has a massive immigrant population, and that has become a very friendly community between different Ethics.
But the thing that gets me is that how come they come to our country, and we say yes, but then we go to theres and end up getting shot or kidnapped? :confused1:

What i've said meaning I don't want to sound racist by saying this because I'm not, My aunt is hindu, which is nice because I get to learn different things about her culture, and I am not pointing a finger at a perticular religion either. :001_smile:

[wackyal3000]

As I said before everyone in the UK is an imigrant as the original occupents were killed off by the celts. We Normans (myself and Roger) are the last people to truly invade the country. We were the last to come here and really take everyones jobs and money etc.
Don't listen to the BNP, in the midlands we have one of the most multi-cultural societies anywhere in the UK and nothing bad happens because of that.

[Aemielius]

Well I am later comer to this topic but I'll throw my 2 pc out there. (WARNING. This may turn into a bit of a rant.)

I don't affiliate with any group or party except my own. If I had my way, I would be Emperor with Ken as my minister of Political Correctness.
Politicians are crooked and shouldn't be allowed in office, Legislative houses should be filled with farmers, sanitation workers and factory workers for a maximum of 6 years. Then get your ass back out there, pay your taxes and live with the screwed up laws you passed during your time in office.

The only thing lawyers should do is represent people in courtrooms.

As far as my views on the issues:

Pro Death penalty.
Truth in sentencing.
Three Strikes, you're out.
Public whippings and executions..ie lynchings or firing squad. It's called punishment for a reason and it shouldn't be painless.

Pro-choice. Why? Because I have been in a position to where I have had to think hard and deep on the subject. I couldn't make it for myself in my situation in my life and NO ONE is qualified to make it for anyone else. If it's a sin then so be it...your deity will judge you according to its ethics, not ours.
It's a moral decision and NO politician is qualified to make such a decision for anyone.

Gay marriage. I'm not all stuck on the gay marriage thing....if 2 people live together and want to formalize their relationship and share the bills, fine. If they went through the trouble of formalizing it then they should be allowed to share in all the things that "normal" married couples do. Insurance benefits, divorces, splitting the kids down the middle etc.

Immigration: Simple. There is a legal way to become a citizen of any country in the world. Do it that way and gain the benefits and responsibilities that go with it. If not then you are a criminal and deserve to be deported or imprisoned.
Learn the language of the country you have decided to live in. Not only is this common sense it is also common courtesy. There are no English signs in the middle Bum-Fuck Mexico informing me to be careful because the floors are slippery when wet. There shouldn't be any Spanish signs in Bum-Fuck, Wisconsin for that either.
Besides, when I tried to immigrate to Germany after my Army tour was finished, I was denied because my German skills weren't good enough despite the fact that I had a wife and an 'anchor-baby'. If I was held to that kind of standard, then everyone has the right to be held to the same standard.

Racism and prejudice: Everyone has some kind of prejudice whether it is political, ethnic, religious or sports.
Racism is simply stupid. You all bleed red, have 10 finger and toes and descended from primates. If you want to be racist then hate the human race, like me. I'm an equal opportunity hater.
FTR My own prejudice is against Iraqis. Not because I actually hate them as a people but because everyone I encountered during Desert Storm tried to kill me. Kind of puts a odd spin on things.

Education. Here we need to take a step back to ward the 50's. Especially in America. "No child left behind"is going to kill us by lowering our educational standards so the lazy and inordinately stupid people can feel better about themselves.
There is nothing wrong with failure. Failure teaches you that you have to try harder. Adversity is how humans learn. If it wasn't we would all still be crawling instead of walking upright.

Anti-bacterial: Love the soaps, great for cleaning everything but I still eat my carrots raw without peeling them. I rinse them off and take a bite. Dirt in the diet helps bolster the immune system. I also believe in the 5 second rule for fallen food.
LET YOUR KIDS PLAY IN THE DIRT!

Political Correctness: is a fine thing but tends to get taken to far. I find nothing wrong with perfectly good descriptive nomenclatures like Black, Oriental, White, Homosexual, Mentally Retarded, Penis or Vagina. I do however find the words, Nigger, Slope, Cracker, Queer, Retard, Cock and Pussy rather offensive. If you must use these words do so out of my hearing range and preferably within your own little group of narrow minded friends.
I am also pretty certain Black man in the UK does not refer to himself as 'Afro-Anglo', nor a Welshman or Scotsman 'Native Albion' or 'Celt-Brit'. They're all English and all citizens of the UK.

National health care: I think it is a good thing. Having lived in Germany, I have seen that it can work. The problem with America is that all the insurance companies don't want to compete with a Federally funded system because they would have to lower their rates and premiums and increase their coverage to stay in business.
There are still privately owned insurance companies in most European countries and they stay competitive and make money for their share holders.

Social Security: Yet again, Simple. If I paid into it and you did not then KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY MONEY. It was meant to help us old people retire not to help support some handicapped 12 year old. That is what Welfare is for and is a separate financial account altogether.

National Debt: I have to be honest there are a lot of facets about this I have absolutely no clue about to give it any real deep thought.
Here's what I do know, being in debt is bad and you get there by spending money you don't really have. So I figure they have to raise taxes and cut spending. Just like the rest of us.
I want to by a new boat/car/video game but don't have the money, I have to save money by not spending it elsewhere and/or work some overtime to bring some more money in.
Pretty simple principle, so why can't legislative bodies seem to be able to do it?

Okay that about ends this rant. If I offended anyone, I might apologize for my opinion. Or not.